Hello Doug;      The wording of the statement is extremely close to a statement that Mr Isely and I received from a member of the Illinois repeater coordination group.   In that statementthe assessment of RFFinder was derived from a conversationwith the owner at Dayton and was based on the use of dataother than information supplied by coordinators.       I would expect that this is a common thread derived froma posting that has circulated on a coordinator's reflector.                                        73, Kermit W9XA CC:: WJ1B        WB8IMY        NQ1R From: Doug Rehman <doug@k4ac.com> To: "'Kramer, Harold, WJ1B'" <wj1b@arrl.org>; 'arrl-odv' <arrl-odv@reflector.arrl.org> Cc: "'Ford, Steve, WB8IMY'" <sford@arrl.org>; "'Inderbitzen, Bob, NQ1R'" <rinderbitzen@arrl.org> Sent: Friday, February 5, 2016 5:25 AM Subject: [arrl-odv:25120] Re: Repeater App Changes #yiv9481363081 #yiv9481363081 -- _filtered #yiv9481363081 {panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;} _filtered #yiv9481363081 {font-family:Calibri;panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;}#yiv9481363081 #yiv9481363081 p.yiv9481363081MsoNormal, #yiv9481363081 li.yiv9481363081MsoNormal, #yiv9481363081 div.yiv9481363081MsoNormal {margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:11.0pt;}#yiv9481363081 a:link, #yiv9481363081 span.yiv9481363081MsoHyperlink {color:#0563C1;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv9481363081 a:visited, #yiv9481363081 span.yiv9481363081MsoHyperlinkFollowed {color:#954F72;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv9481363081 p.yiv9481363081MsoListParagraph, #yiv9481363081 li.yiv9481363081MsoListParagraph, #yiv9481363081 div.yiv9481363081MsoListParagraph {margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:8.0pt;margin-left:.5in;line-height:105%;font-size:11.0pt;}#yiv9481363081 p.yiv9481363081MsoListParagraphCxSpFirst, #yiv9481363081 li.yiv9481363081MsoListParagraphCxSpFirst, #yiv9481363081 div.yiv9481363081MsoListParagraphCxSpFirst {margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:.5in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:105%;font-size:11.0pt;}#yiv9481363081 p.yiv9481363081MsoListParagraphCxSpMiddle, #yiv9481363081 li.yiv9481363081MsoListParagraphCxSpMiddle, #yiv9481363081 div.yiv9481363081MsoListParagraphCxSpMiddle {margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:.5in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:105%;font-size:11.0pt;}#yiv9481363081 p.yiv9481363081MsoListParagraphCxSpLast, #yiv9481363081 li.yiv9481363081MsoListParagraphCxSpLast, #yiv9481363081 div.yiv9481363081MsoListParagraphCxSpLast {margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:8.0pt;margin-left:.5in;line-height:105%;font-size:11.0pt;}#yiv9481363081 p.yiv9481363081msonormal0, #yiv9481363081 li.yiv9481363081msonormal0, #yiv9481363081 div.yiv9481363081msonormal0 {margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;font-size:12.0pt;}#yiv9481363081 span.yiv9481363081EmailStyle19 {color:windowtext;font-weight:normal;font-style:normal;text-decoration:none none;}#yiv9481363081 span.yiv9481363081EmailStyle20 {color:#1F497D;}#yiv9481363081 .yiv9481363081MsoChpDefault {font-size:10.0pt;} _filtered #yiv9481363081 {margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;}#yiv9481363081 div.yiv9481363081WordSection1 {}#yiv9481363081 I’ve received push back (unofficially) from a board member of one of the coordinators. Specifically:  “I know several of our leadership are very concerned about this agreement from the standpoint of the reputation of RFinder.  Speaking from personal contact with the owner at Dayton a few years ago, he made it clear that he will scrape or steal (his words) from any source of repeater information to include in his product for sale.  Others have had similar experiences and would consider him an unprofessional and unscrupulous individual.“  This may affect their providing information to the ARRL for the printed repeater directory.  I understand at least one other Director has received push back. It would be good to have an official statement we can use to address concerns.  DougK4AC    From: arrl-odv [mailto:arrl-odv-bounces@reflector.arrl.org] On Behalf Of Kramer, Harold, WJ1B Sent: Friday, January 29, 2016 1:05 PM To: arrl-odv <arrl-odv@reflector.arrl.org> Cc: Ford, Steve, WB8IMY <sford@arrl.org>; Inderbitzen, Bob, NQ1R <rinderbitzen@arrl.org> Subject: [arrl-odv:25083] Repeater App Changes  To: ARRL ODV  We are discontinuing our iOS and Android Repeater Directory apps in a few weeks.  We have instead entered into an agreement with RFinder (www.rfinder.net) to promote their highly popular online repeater directory as an “ARRL branded” service. Unlike our approach which was based on a single, annual “snapshot” of the ARRL Repeater Directory database, RFinder offers a far superior online and dynamic directory, regularly updated to include new features.  The remainder of this email will be in the form of Questions and Answers to assist you in answering questions from members.  What is RFinder?www.rfinder.netFrom their website:“The RFinder (RepeaterFinder) Worldwide Repeater Directory is a steadily growing worldwide repeater directory including IRLP, Echolink, AllStar, DStar, MotoTRBO, and even Winlink information.  We currently have over 175 countries in the directory!Access to the World Wide Repeater Directory is provided by any version of the RFinder smartphone apps on Android, iPhone and iPad/iPod Touch, by subscription for $9.99/year.  The same userid enables access from any version of the RFinder app, our browser interface (web.rfinder.net), or through a growing list of third-party memory programming applications such as RTSystems radio programmers and CHIRP open source software.  One subscription, access to world wide repeater data from any computing device!  We will be releasing Windows Phone and Symbian later this year as well as POI data for TomTom and Garmin GPS units.  Again, one subscription, access from anywhere!”  How will the app be branded?We are still working out the final details, but the app will be promoted as something like “The official ARRL online repeater directory.” ARRL’s logo will appear on the user’s device when they are using the app within the USA.  Why is it ARRL branded only in the USA?This is because RFinder is the official repeater directory of the RSGB (UK), RAC (Canada), DARC (Germany) and many other national Amateur Radio societies. The branding changes depending on where the device is located. Bob Inderbitzen and I spoke with representatives of RSGB and RAC who had provided us with positive feedback about their relationship with RFinder.  What platforms does it support?As noted above, RFinder is currently available via any web browser, and apps for iOS and Android devices.   How much does it cost?RFinder costs $9.99 for a one-year subscription. Android users can try it for 30 day for free. Users pay RFinder via their app or web service.  What does ARRL get from this arrangement?(Not for outside ODV) ARRL gets a percentage of the net revenue after the transaction costs charged to RFinder by the payment processor. Each subscription and renewal of RFinder in the US will support ARRL.  Will ARRL be sharing any data from the Frequency Coordinators that is currently used in ARRL’s printed Repeater Directory?The repeater data supplied for the ARRL Repeater Directory database for the upcoming edition of the Directory will NOT be shared with RFinder. The ARRL Repeater Directory database will only be used to publish the printed ARRL Repeater Directory and only participating coordinators and ARRL-authorized personnel will have access to it.  Will ARRL continue to print a Repeater Directory?Yes.  What about ARRL’s other Repeater Directory related products?We are discontinuing the TravelPlus, a CD-ROM, Windows-based program, at the end of the current edition cycle (April). TravelPlus has served the Amateur Radio community well for many years, but customer expectations have changed and TravelPlus no longer sufficiently meets those expectations.  What about the current users of the ARRL Repeater Directory apps?The current developer of the ARRL Repeater Directory apps is already aware that we will be discontinuing these apps. We are working with the developer and RFinder on a mutually agreeable plan for migrating existing ARRL app users to RFinder. We may, for instance, transfer current activation codes to RFinder to support remaining subscription terms.  73,  Harold  Harold Kramer, WJ1BChief Operating Officer  ARRL - The national association for Amateur Radio®225 Main StreetNewington CT 06111-1494Telephone: 860-594-0220Fax: 860-594-0259email: hkramer@arrl.org   _______________________________________________ arrl-odv mailing list arrl-odv@reflector.arrl.org https://reflector.arrl.org/mailman/listinfo/arrl-odv

Dave: Thanks for the background. Your summary about the once per year snapshot of data from the coordinators is spot on. In Florida, the FRC has been on the edge of being ineffective for as long as I know. They have had a single person doing database updates and he has limited time and an unacceptable error rate. Their once a year snapshot may be months out of date. On lesser used bands, many repeater owners don't even bother with coordination because the process is so poor. One question- you said: "4. We are continuing to publish the annual Repeater Directory in print form and to compensate repeater coordinators who supply data for the Repeater Directory in accordance with existing agreements." What specifically is the compensation to the Repeater Coordinators? With that bit of information in your email, it appears that the coordinators may be in fear of the League ceasing publication of the printed Repeater Directory and the loss of a revenue stream to them. Doug K4AC From: Sumner, Dave, K1ZZ [mailto:dsumner@arrl.org] Sent: Friday, February 5, 2016 10:36 AM To: Rehman, Doug, K4AC <doug@k4ac.com>; Kramer, Harold, WJ1B <wj1b@arrl.org>; arrl-odv <arrl-odv@reflector.arrl.org> Cc: Ford, Steve, WB8IMY <sford@arrl.org>; Inderbitzen, Bob, NQ1R <rinderbitzen@arrl.org> Subject: RE: [arrl-odv:25120] Re: Repeater App Changes At Minute 9.3 of the October 3, 2015 Executive Committee meeting there is the following summary: 9.3. Mr. Sumner reviewed the history and future prospects of the ARRL Repeater Directory and related products. A new agreement was reached with 54 of 60 repeater frequency coordinators that will result in an improved publication for the 2016-17 Edition. However, the long-term viability of printed directories of any kind is doubtful. There are inexpensive web-based directories and smartphone apps available that accept crowdsourced data and are growing in popularity. Significant investment will be required if the quality of the Repeater Directory and related products is to meet future market expectations and ARRL organizational objectives. In the course of discussion it was generally agreed that there are several factors to be considered in determining whether such an investment is appropriate since the Repeater Directory serves several objectives in addition to generating net revenue in support of the ARRL's mission. In the course of developing the 2016-17 operational plan it became apparent that we could not continue to support TravelPlus, nor did it make sense to make the investment in the mobile app that would be necessary to make it competitive. This was highlighted in the Chief Operating Officer's report to the January Board meeting. On the other hand, we couldn't leave existing users of these products high and dry, so we looked for alternatives. RFinder was among the most cited online resources for listings that are more complete than our ARRL Repeater Directory database products. Our own research found that the RFinder apps have a user base many more times larger than our Repeater Directory apps and software put together. And, the RFinder apps consistently enjoy greater than 4/5 ratings from its subscribers. The ARRL Repeater apps, which never enjoyed anything better than ratings of 2-3, were criticized for missing, incomplete, and static data (updated only once yearly). The TravelPlus software had reached the end of its lifecycle--wrought with Windows incompatibility problems. The developer was unable to keep pace with user demands for feature-rich mobile applications and interest in "Google-like" mapping (TravelPlus used very coarse maps). We could no longer sustain the software support--and its customer base was on the decline (not surprising at $25 to $35 each year). Bob Greenberg, W2CYK, is a longtime ARRL member who had already entered into marketing arrangements with national societies in several other countries, as described in yesterday's news release. Our due diligence included checking with our sister societies to learn about their experience working with him. So to summarize: 1. We are discontinuing TravelPlus, a product built on an obsolete platform that no longer meets anyone's expectations and clearly is not worth the investment it would take to update and maintain it. 2. We are discontinuing a mobile app that is uncompetitive and not worth further investment. 3. We are endorsing a different app that is much more useful to end users and will provide a modest revenue stream to the ARRL with little cost or risk. The ARRL has no involvement in providing content for this app. 4. We are continuing to publish the annual Repeater Directory in print form and to compensate repeater coordinators who supply data for the Repeater Directory in accordance with existing agreements. Because there is erroneous information to the contrary in circulation I will say again, with emphasis: The ARRL is NOT providing data to RFinder. Our reading of the current agreement with repeater coordinators who provide data for the printed Repeater Directory is that it prevents us from sharing this data with third parties and we intend to adhere strictly to that reading. 73, Dave K1ZZ

Dave: Thanks for the additional information. I'm not certain what the coordinators think they will accomplish by withholding data from the League. It seems the likely outcome of their doing that would be for the Repeater Directory to cease publication much sooner-depriving themselves of an additional five or so years of easy money. Perhaps they mistakenly believe they can intimidate the League into cancelling the RFinder contract. At any rate, I don't think they will gain much sympathy in the general amateur community once it is known that there is a potential monetary element to their protestations. Time and technology march on; organizations either adapt or decline. Doug K4AC From: Sumner, Dave, K1ZZ [mailto:dsumner@arrl.org] Sent: Friday, February 5, 2016 11:24 AM To: Rehman, Doug, K4AC <doug@k4ac.com>; Kramer, Harold, WJ1B <wj1b@arrl.org>; arrl-odv <arrl-odv@reflector.arrl.org> Cc: Ford, Steve, WB8IMY <sford@arrl.org>; Inderbitzen, Bob, NQ1R <rinderbitzen@arrl.org> Subject: RE: [arrl-odv:25120] Re: Repeater App Changes Doug, I'm sure that concern is in the back of some minds, and for good reason. While the printed Repeater Directory is still profitable and reasonably popular, sales are declining and we're running out of rabbits to pull out the hat such as the large-print spiral-bound edition. It's difficult to imagine there will be a market for the printed Directory five years from now. Our longstanding arrangement with coordinators is that we pay $1.00 per listing that they provide. That price was intended originally to offset the cost of their verifying data, which at the time relied on the US Postal Service as the communications channel between the coordinator and the repeater owners. I'm sure it represents a significant part of the budgets of some coordinators. Dave From: Rehman, Doug, K4AC Sent: Friday, February 05, 2016 10:59 AM To: Sumner, Dave, K1ZZ; Kramer, Harold, WJ1B; arrl-odv Cc: Ford, Steve, WB8IMY; Inderbitzen, Bob, NQ1R Subject: RE: [arrl-odv:25120] Re: Repeater App Changes Dave: Thanks for the background. Your summary about the once per year snapshot of data from the coordinators is spot on. In Florida, the FRC has been on the edge of being ineffective for as long as I know. They have had a single person doing database updates and he has limited time and an unacceptable error rate. Their once a year snapshot may be months out of date. On lesser used bands, many repeater owners don't even bother with coordination because the process is so poor. One question- you said: "4. We are continuing to publish the annual Repeater Directory in print form and to compensate repeater coordinators who supply data for the Repeater Directory in accordance with existing agreements." What specifically is the compensation to the Repeater Coordinators? With that bit of information in your email, it appears that the coordinators may be in fear of the League ceasing publication of the printed Repeater Directory and the loss of a revenue stream to them. Doug K4AC From: Sumner, Dave, K1ZZ [mailto:dsumner@arrl.org] Sent: Friday, February 5, 2016 10:36 AM To: Rehman, Doug, K4AC <doug@k4ac.com <mailto:doug@k4ac.com> >; Kramer, Harold, WJ1B <wj1b@arrl.org <mailto:wj1b@arrl.org> >; arrl-odv <arrl-odv@reflector.arrl.org <mailto:arrl-odv@reflector.arrl.org> > Cc: Ford, Steve, WB8IMY <sford@arrl.org <mailto:sford@arrl.org> >; Inderbitzen, Bob, NQ1R <rinderbitzen@arrl.org <mailto:rinderbitzen@arrl.org>

Subject: RE: [arrl-odv:25120] Re: Repeater App Changes At Minute 9.3 of the October 3, 2015 Executive Committee meeting there is the following summary: 9.3. Mr. Sumner reviewed the history and future prospects of the ARRL Repeater Directory and related products. A new agreement was reached with 54 of 60 repeater frequency coordinators that will result in an improved publication for the 2016-17 Edition. However, the long-term viability of printed directories of any kind is doubtful. There are inexpensive web-based directories and smartphone apps available that accept crowdsourced data and are growing in popularity. Significant investment will be required if the quality of the Repeater Directory and related products is to meet future market expectations and ARRL organizational objectives. In the course of discussion it was generally agreed that there are several factors to be considered in determining whether such an investment is appropriate since the Repeater Directory serves several objectives in addition to generating net revenue in support of the ARRL's mission. In the course of developing the 2016-17 operational plan it became apparent that we could not continue to support TravelPlus, nor did it make sense to make the investment in the mobile app that would be necessary to make it competitive. This was highlighted in the Chief Operating Officer's report to the January Board meeting. On the other hand, we couldn't leave existing users of these products high and dry, so we looked for alternatives. RFinder was among the most cited online resources for listings that are more complete than our ARRL Repeater Directory database products. Our own research found that the RFinder apps have a user base many more times larger than our Repeater Directory apps and software put together. And, the RFinder apps consistently enjoy greater than 4/5 ratings from its subscribers. The ARRL Repeater apps, which never enjoyed anything better than ratings of 2-3, were criticized for missing, incomplete, and static data (updated only once yearly). The TravelPlus software had reached the end of its lifecycle--wrought with Windows incompatibility problems. The developer was unable to keep pace with user demands for feature-rich mobile applications and interest in "Google-like" mapping (TravelPlus used very coarse maps). We could no longer sustain the software support--and its customer base was on the decline (not surprising at $25 to $35 each year). Bob Greenberg, W2CYK, is a longtime ARRL member who had already entered into marketing arrangements with national societies in several other countries, as described in yesterday's news release. Our due diligence included checking with our sister societies to learn about their experience working with him. So to summarize: 1. We are discontinuing TravelPlus, a product built on an obsolete platform that no longer meets anyone's expectations and clearly is not worth the investment it would take to update and maintain it. 2. We are discontinuing a mobile app that is uncompetitive and not worth further investment. 3. We are endorsing a different app that is much more useful to end users and will provide a modest revenue stream to the ARRL with little cost or risk. The ARRL has no involvement in providing content for this app. 4. We are continuing to publish the annual Repeater Directory in print form and to compensate repeater coordinators who supply data for the Repeater Directory in accordance with existing agreements. Because there is erroneous information to the contrary in circulation I will say again, with emphasis: The ARRL is NOT providing data to RFinder. Our reading of the current agreement with repeater coordinators who provide data for the printed Repeater Directory is that it prevents us from sharing this data with third parties and we intend to adhere strictly to that reading. 73, Dave K1ZZ

I’m getting some push back here as well. One of the main points relates to item 3 below: If the RFinder app is “branded” by ARRL the membership will believe (rightly or wrongly) that we are responsible for the content. Yet we have no responsibility for providing content. Therefor it’s likely that RFinder will contain both coordinated and un-coordinated repeaters. If that be the case, then it seems a necessity that each repeater listing be labeled as such. Or perhaps RFinder could only accept input data from the repeater coordinators? Thoughts?? 73’s, Rod, K0DAS From: Sumner, Dave, K1ZZ Sent: Friday, February 05, 2016 9:36 AM To: Rehman, Doug, K4AC ; Kramer, Harold, WJ1B ; arrl-odv Cc: Ford, Steve, WB8IMY ; Inderbitzen, Bob,NQ1R Subject: [arrl-odv:25125] Re: Repeater App Changes At Minute 9.3 of the October 3, 2015 Executive Committee meeting there is the following summary: 9.3. Mr. Sumner reviewed the history and future prospects of the ARRL Repeater Directory and related products. A new agreement was reached with 54 of 60 repeater frequency coordinators that will result in an improved publication for the 2016-17 Edition. However, the long-term viability of printed directories of any kind is doubtful. There are inexpensive web-based directories and smartphone apps available that accept crowdsourced data and are growing in popularity. Significant investment will be required if the quality of the Repeater Directory and related products is to meet future market expectations and ARRL organizational objectives. In the course of discussion it was generally agreed that there are several factors to be considered in determining whether such an investment is appropriate since the Repeater Directory serves several objectives in addition to generating net revenue in support of the ARRL’s mission. In the course of developing the 2016-17 operational plan it became apparent that we could not continue to support TravelPlus, nor did it make sense to make the investment in the mobile app that would be necessary to make it competitive. This was highlighted in the Chief Operating Officer’s report to the January Board meeting. On the other hand, we couldn’t leave existing users of these products high and dry, so we looked for alternatives. RFinder was among the most cited online resources for listings that are more complete than our ARRL Repeater Directory database products. Our own research found that the RFinder apps have a user base many more times larger than our Repeater Directory apps and software put together. And, the RFinder apps consistently enjoy greater than 4/5 ratings from its subscribers. The ARRL Repeater apps, which never enjoyed anything better than ratings of 2-3, were criticized for missing, incomplete, and static data (updated only once yearly). The TravelPlus software had reached the end of its lifecycle--wrought with Windows incompatibility problems. The developer was unable to keep pace with user demands for feature-rich mobile applications and interest in "Google-like" mapping (TravelPlus used very coarse maps). We could no longer sustain the software support--and its customer base was on the decline (not surprising at $25 to $35 each year). Bob Greenberg, W2CYK, is a longtime ARRL member who had already entered into marketing arrangements with national societies in several other countries, as described in yesterday’s news release. Our due diligence included checking with our sister societies to learn about their experience working with him. So to summarize: 1. We are discontinuing TravelPlus, a product built on an obsolete platform that no longer meets anyone’s expectations and clearly is not worth the investment it would take to update and maintain it. 2. We are discontinuing a mobile app that is uncompetitive and not worth further investment. 3. We are endorsing a different app that is much more useful to end users and will provide a modest revenue stream to the ARRL with little cost or risk. The ARRL has no involvement in providing content for this app. 4. We are continuing to publish the annual Repeater Directory in print form and to compensate repeater coordinators who supply data for the Repeater Directory in accordance with existing agreements. Because there is erroneous information to the contrary in circulation I will say again, with emphasis: The ARRL is NOT providing data to RFinder. Our reading of the current agreement with repeater coordinators who provide data for the printed Repeater Directory is that it prevents us from sharing this data with third parties and we intend to adhere strictly to that reading. 73, Dave K1ZZ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ arrl-odv mailing list arrl-odv@reflector.arrl.org https://reflector.arrl.org/mailman/listinfo/arrl-odv

Exactly, Jim. Thanks for the concise analysis. 73, Dave K1ZZ ________________________________________ From: Boehner, James, N2ZZ Sent: Friday, February 05, 2016 10:33 PM To: Blocksome, Rod, K0DAS; Sumner, Dave, K1ZZ; Rehman, Doug, K4AC; Kramer, Harold, WJ1B; arrl-odv Cc: Ford, Steve, WB8IMY; Inderbitzen, Bob, NQ1R Subject: RE: [arrl-odv:25131] Re: Repeater App Changes The great advantage of the app is that it uses crowd-sourcing, so that the database is continually updated rather than stuck at one point in time. I spoke with Bob, and the app designer is planning on adding another field to his data to indicate if a repeater is coordinated or not. Hopefully that will encourage coordination bodies to contribute to the app to give their stamp of approval to the data, with credit given to them. The coordination bodies have controlled data up to this time, but in this age of immediate information and crowd-sourcing, that strangle-hold will no longer be the case. Since the print versions are not going away, the coordinators should not lose their income for data submitted to the ARRL, at least not in the short term. Like everyone else, they will need to adapt to our accelerated digital age. ’73 de JIM N2ZZ Director – Roanoke Division Serving ARRL members in the Virginia, West Virginia, South Carolina and North Carolina sections ARRL – The National Association for Amateur Radio™ From: arrl-odv [mailto:arrl-odv-bounces@reflector.arrl.org] On Behalf Of Rod Blocksome Sent: Friday, February 05, 2016 5:28 PM To: Sumner, Dave, K1ZZ; Rehman, Doug, K4AC; Kramer, Harold, WJ1B; arrl-odv Cc: Ford, Steve, WB8IMY; Inderbitzen, Bob, NQ1R Subject: [arrl-odv:25131] Re: Repeater App Changes I’m getting some push back here as well. One of the main points relates to item 3 below: If the RFinder app is “branded” by ARRL the membership will believe (rightly or wrongly) that we are responsible for the content. Yet we have no responsibility for providing content. Therefor it’s likely that RFinder will contain both coordinated and un-coordinated repeaters. If that be the case, then it seems a necessity that each repeater listing be labeled as such. Or perhaps RFinder could only accept input data from the repeater coordinators? Thoughts?? 73’s, Rod, K0DAS From: Sumner, Dave, K1ZZ<mailto:dsumner@arrl.org> Sent: Friday, February 05, 2016 9:36 AM To: Rehman, Doug, K4AC<mailto:doug@k4ac.com> ; Kramer, Harold, WJ1B<mailto:wj1b@arrl.org> ; arrl-odv<mailto:arrl-odv@reflector.arrl.org> Cc: Ford, Steve, WB8IMY<mailto:sford@arrl.org> ; Inderbitzen, Bob,NQ1R<mailto:rinderbitzen@arrl.org> Subject: [arrl-odv:25125] Re: Repeater App Changes At Minute 9.3 of the October 3, 2015 Executive Committee meeting there is the following summary: 9.3. Mr. Sumner reviewed the history and future prospects of the ARRL Repeater Directory and related products. A new agreement was reached with 54 of 60 repeater frequency coordinators that will result in an improved publication for the 2016-17 Edition. However, the long-term viability of printed directories of any kind is doubtful. There are inexpensive web-based directories and smartphone apps available that accept crowdsourced data and are growing in popularity. Significant investment will be required if the quality of the Repeater Directory and related products is to meet future market expectations and ARRL organizational objectives. In the course of discussion it was generally agreed that there are several factors to be considered in determining whether such an investment is appropriate since the Repeater Directory serves several objectives in addition to generating net revenue in support of the ARRL’s mission. In the course of developing the 2016-17 operational plan it became apparent that we could not continue to support TravelPlus, nor did it make sense to make the investment in the mobile app that would be necessary to make it competitive. This was highlighted in the Chief Operating Officer’s report to the January Board meeting. On the other hand, we couldn’t leave existing users of these products high and dry, so we looked for alternatives. RFinder was among the most cited online resources for listings that are more complete than our ARRL Repeater Directory database products. Our own research found that the RFinder apps have a user base many more times larger than our Repeater Directory apps and software put together. And, the RFinder apps consistently enjoy greater than 4/5 ratings from its subscribers. The ARRL Repeater apps, which never enjoyed anything better than ratings of 2-3, were criticized for missing, incomplete, and static data (updated only once yearly). The TravelPlus software had reached the end of its lifecycle--wrought with Windows incompatibility problems. The developer was unable to keep pace with user demands for feature-rich mobile applications and interest in "Google-like" mapping (TravelPlus used very coarse maps). We could no longer sustain the software support--and its customer base was on the decline (not surprising at $25 to $35 each year). Bob Greenberg, W2CYK, is a longtime ARRL member who had already entered into marketing arrangements with national societies in several other countries, as described in yesterday’s news release. Our due diligence included checking with our sister societies to learn about their experience working with him. So to summarize: 1. We are discontinuing TravelPlus, a product built on an obsolete platform that no longer meets anyone’s expectations and clearly is not worth the investment it would take to update and maintain it. 2. We are discontinuing a mobile app that is uncompetitive and not worth further investment. 3. We are endorsing a different app that is much more useful to end users and will provide a modest revenue stream to the ARRL with little cost or risk. The ARRL has no involvement in providing content for this app. 4. We are continuing to publish the annual Repeater Directory in print form and to compensate repeater coordinators who supply data for the Repeater Directory in accordance with existing agreements. Because there is erroneous information to the contrary in circulation I will say again, with emphasis: The ARRL is NOT providing data to RFinder. Our reading of the current agreement with repeater coordinators who provide data for the printed Repeater Directory is that it prevents us from sharing this data with third parties and we intend to adhere strictly to that reading. 73, Dave K1ZZ ________________________________ _______________________________________________ arrl-odv mailing list arrl-odv@reflector.arrl.org<mailto:arrl-odv@reflector.arrl.org> https://reflector.arrl.org/mailman/listinfo/arrl-odv

It occurs to me that some of the coordinators may have come to a very frightening realization—what happens to them if RFinder decides to go into the repeater coordination business? They already have a very good crowdsourced database of repeaters. If they add some topographic based coverage prediction software, they could automate the process of coordination to near real time. (Of course they would need ASL or HAAT data, and possibly erp, for prediction.) Since the current coordinators have absolutely no exclusive “right” to coordinate their areas (no recognition by the FCC or the ARRL), this could get very interesting. Doug K4AC From: Rod Blocksome [mailto:rod.blocksome@gmail.com] Sent: Saturday, February 6, 2016 2:49 PM To: James F. Boehner, MD <jboehner01@yahoo.com>; 'Sumner, Dave, K1ZZ' <dsumner@arrl.org>; 'Rehman, Doug, K4AC' <doug@k4ac.com>; 'Kramer, Harold, WJ1B' <wj1b@arrl.org>; 'arrl-odv' <arrl-odv@reflector.arrl.org> Cc: 'Ford, Steve, WB8IMY' <sford@arrl.org>; 'Inderbitzen, Bob, NQ1R' <rinderbitzen@arrl.org> Subject: Re: [arrl-odv:25131] Re: Repeater App Changes Jim, I understand your points but I believe this is ripe for unintended consequences. Dave, please correct me if I’m wrong, but the ARRL repeater directory has only published coordinated repeaters. So now our brand goes on a third-party app who publishes repeater data from any source – both coordinated and uncoordinated repeaters? If the app is going to show that a repeater is coordinated or uncoordinated, then I think it should be a part of the WRITTEN agreement and further that the “coordinated” label AND coordinated repeater data only come through the section repeater coordinators. Otherwise, I think trouble lies ahead. 73, Rod, K0DAS From: James F. Boehner, MD <mailto:jboehner01@yahoo.com> Sent: Friday, February 05, 2016 9:33 PM To: 'Rod Blocksome' <mailto:rod.blocksome@gmail.com> ; 'Sumner, Dave, K1ZZ' <mailto:dsumner@arrl.org> ; 'Rehman, Doug, K4AC' <mailto:doug@k4ac.com> ; 'Kramer, Harold, WJ1B' <mailto:wj1b@arrl.org> ; 'arrl-odv' <mailto:arrl-odv@reflector.arrl.org> Cc: 'Ford, Steve, WB8IMY' <mailto:sford@arrl.org> ; 'Inderbitzen, Bob, NQ1R' <mailto:rinderbitzen@arrl.org> Subject: RE: [arrl-odv:25131] Re: Repeater App Changes The great advantage of the app is that it uses crowd-sourcing, so that the database is continually updated rather than stuck at one point in time. I spoke with Bob, and the app designer is planning on adding another field to his data to indicate if a repeater is coordinated or not. Hopefully that will encourage coordination bodies to contribute to the app to give their stamp of approval to the data, with credit given to them. The coordination bodies have controlled data up to this time, but in this age of immediate information and crowd-sourcing, that strangle-hold will no longer be the case. Since the print versions are not going away, the coordinators should not lose their income for data submitted to the ARRL, at least not in the short term. Like everyone else, they will need to adapt to our accelerated digital age. ’73 de JIM N2ZZ Director – Roanoke Division Serving ARRL members in the Virginia, West Virginia, South Carolina and North Carolina sections ARRL – The National Association for Amateur Radio™ From: arrl-odv [mailto:arrl-odv-bounces@reflector.arrl.org] On Behalf Of Rod Blocksome Sent: Friday, February 05, 2016 5:28 PM To: Sumner, Dave, K1ZZ; Rehman, Doug, K4AC; Kramer, Harold, WJ1B; arrl-odv Cc: Ford, Steve, WB8IMY; Inderbitzen, Bob, NQ1R Subject: [arrl-odv:25131] Re: Repeater App Changes I’m getting some push back here as well. One of the main points relates to item 3 below: If the RFinder app is “branded” by ARRL the membership will believe (rightly or wrongly) that we are responsible for the content. Yet we have no responsibility for providing content. Therefor it’s likely that RFinder will contain both coordinated and un-coordinated repeaters. If that be the case, then it seems a necessity that each repeater listing be labeled as such. Or perhaps RFinder could only accept input data from the repeater coordinators? Thoughts?? 73’s, Rod, K0DAS From: Sumner, Dave, K1ZZ <mailto:dsumner@arrl.org> Sent: Friday, February 05, 2016 9:36 AM To: Rehman, Doug, K4AC <mailto:doug@k4ac.com> ; Kramer, Harold, WJ1B <mailto:wj1b@arrl.org> ; arrl-odv <mailto:arrl-odv@reflector.arrl.org> Cc: Ford, Steve, WB8IMY <mailto:sford@arrl.org> ; Inderbitzen, Bob,NQ1R <mailto:rinderbitzen@arrl.org> Subject: [arrl-odv:25125] Re: Repeater App Changes At Minute 9.3 of the October 3, 2015 Executive Committee meeting there is the following summary: 9.3. Mr. Sumner reviewed the history and future prospects of the ARRL Repeater Directory and related products. A new agreement was reached with 54 of 60 repeater frequency coordinators that will result in an improved publication for the 2016-17 Edition. However, the long-term viability of printed directories of any kind is doubtful. There are inexpensive web-based directories and smartphone apps available that accept crowdsourced data and are growing in popularity. Significant investment will be required if the quality of the Repeater Directory and related products is to meet future market expectations and ARRL organizational objectives. In the course of discussion it was generally agreed that there are several factors to be considered in determining whether such an investment is appropriate since the Repeater Directory serves several objectives in addition to generating net revenue in support of the ARRL’s mission. In the course of developing the 2016-17 operational plan it became apparent that we could not continue to support TravelPlus, nor did it make sense to make the investment in the mobile app that would be necessary to make it competitive. This was highlighted in the Chief Operating Officer’s report to the January Board meeting. On the other hand, we couldn’t leave existing users of these products high and dry, so we looked for alternatives. RFinder was among the most cited online resources for listings that are more complete than our ARRL Repeater Directory database products. Our own research found that the RFinder apps have a user base many more times larger than our Repeater Directory apps and software put together. And, the RFinder apps consistently enjoy greater than 4/5 ratings from its subscribers. The ARRL Repeater apps, which never enjoyed anything better than ratings of 2-3, were criticized for missing, incomplete, and static data (updated only once yearly). The TravelPlus software had reached the end of its lifecycle--wrought with Windows incompatibility problems. The developer was unable to keep pace with user demands for feature-rich mobile applications and interest in "Google-like" mapping (TravelPlus used very coarse maps). We could no longer sustain the software support--and its customer base was on the decline (not surprising at $25 to $35 each year). Bob Greenberg, W2CYK, is a longtime ARRL member who had already entered into marketing arrangements with national societies in several other countries, as described in yesterday’s news release. Our due diligence included checking with our sister societies to learn about their experience working with him. So to summarize: 1. We are discontinuing TravelPlus, a product built on an obsolete platform that no longer meets anyone’s expectations and clearly is not worth the investment it would take to update and maintain it. 2. We are discontinuing a mobile app that is uncompetitive and not worth further investment. 3. We are endorsing a different app that is much more useful to end users and will provide a modest revenue stream to the ARRL with little cost or risk. The ARRL has no involvement in providing content for this app. 4. We are continuing to publish the annual Repeater Directory in print form and to compensate repeater coordinators who supply data for the Repeater Directory in accordance with existing agreements. Because there is erroneous information to the contrary in circulation I will say again, with emphasis: The ARRL is NOT providing data to RFinder. Our reading of the current agreement with repeater coordinators who provide data for the printed Repeater Directory is that it prevents us from sharing this data with third parties and we intend to adhere strictly to that reading. 73, Dave K1ZZ _____ _______________________________________________ arrl-odv mailing list arrl-odv@reflector.arrl.org <mailto:arrl-odv@reflector.arrl.org> https://reflector.arrl.org/mailman/listinfo/arrl-odv

Rod, to answer your question: I have the 2015-2016 Repeater Directory (pocket edition) in front of me. On page 21 is the key to the notes that appear in listings. # denotes an Uncoordinated System. You will find them listed throughout the book although they are in the minority.

From the standpoint of the person who pays money for a Repeater Directory, whether a repeater is coordinated or not is of less interest than whether it exists.

73, Dave K1ZZ ________________________________________ From: Blocksome, Rod, K0DAS Sent: Saturday, February 06, 2016 2:49 PM To: Boehner, James, N2ZZ; Sumner, Dave, K1ZZ; Rehman, Doug, K4AC; Kramer, Harold, WJ1B; arrl-odv Cc: Ford, Steve, WB8IMY; Inderbitzen, Bob, NQ1R Subject: Re: [arrl-odv:25131] Re: Repeater App Changes Jim, I understand your points but I believe this is ripe for unintended consequences. Dave, please correct me if I’m wrong, but the ARRL repeater directory has only published coordinated repeaters. So now our brand goes on a third-party app who publishes repeater data from any source – both coordinated and uncoordinated repeaters? If the app is going to show that a repeater is coordinated or uncoordinated, then I think it should be a part of the WRITTEN agreement and further that the “coordinated” label AND coordinated repeater data only come through the section repeater coordinators. Otherwise, I think trouble lies ahead. 73, Rod, K0DAS From: James F. Boehner, MD<mailto:jboehner01@yahoo.com> Sent: Friday, February 05, 2016 9:33 PM To: 'Rod Blocksome'<mailto:rod.blocksome@gmail.com> ; 'Sumner, Dave, K1ZZ'<mailto:dsumner@arrl.org> ; 'Rehman, Doug, K4AC'<mailto:doug@k4ac.com> ; 'Kramer, Harold, WJ1B'<mailto:wj1b@arrl.org> ; 'arrl-odv'<mailto:arrl-odv@reflector.arrl.org> Cc: 'Ford, Steve, WB8IMY'<mailto:sford@arrl.org> ; 'Inderbitzen, Bob, NQ1R'<mailto:rinderbitzen@arrl.org> Subject: RE: [arrl-odv:25131] Re: Repeater App Changes The great advantage of the app is that it uses crowd-sourcing, so that the database is continually updated rather than stuck at one point in time. I spoke with Bob, and the app designer is planning on adding another field to his data to indicate if a repeater is coordinated or not. Hopefully that will encourage coordination bodies to contribute to the app to give their stamp of approval to the data, with credit given to them. The coordination bodies have controlled data up to this time, but in this age of immediate information and crowd-sourcing, that strangle-hold will no longer be the case. Since the print versions are not going away, the coordinators should not lose their income for data submitted to the ARRL, at least not in the short term. Like everyone else, they will need to adapt to our accelerated digital age. ’73 de JIM N2ZZ Director – Roanoke Division Serving ARRL members in the Virginia, West Virginia, South Carolina and North Carolina sections ARRL – The National Association for Amateur Radio™ From: arrl-odv [mailto:arrl-odv-bounces@reflector.arrl.org] On Behalf Of Rod Blocksome Sent: Friday, February 05, 2016 5:28 PM To: Sumner, Dave, K1ZZ; Rehman, Doug, K4AC; Kramer, Harold, WJ1B; arrl-odv Cc: Ford, Steve, WB8IMY; Inderbitzen, Bob, NQ1R Subject: [arrl-odv:25131] Re: Repeater App Changes I’m getting some push back here as well. One of the main points relates to item 3 below: If the RFinder app is “branded” by ARRL the membership will believe (rightly or wrongly) that we are responsible for the content. Yet we have no responsibility for providing content. Therefor it’s likely that RFinder will contain both coordinated and un-coordinated repeaters. If that be the case, then it seems a necessity that each repeater listing be labeled as such. Or perhaps RFinder could only accept input data from the repeater coordinators? Thoughts?? 73’s, Rod, K0DAS From: Sumner, Dave, K1ZZ<mailto:dsumner@arrl.org> Sent: Friday, February 05, 2016 9:36 AM To: Rehman, Doug, K4AC<mailto:doug@k4ac.com> ; Kramer, Harold, WJ1B<mailto:wj1b@arrl.org> ; arrl-odv<mailto:arrl-odv@reflector.arrl.org> Cc: Ford, Steve, WB8IMY<mailto:sford@arrl.org> ; Inderbitzen, Bob,NQ1R<mailto:rinderbitzen@arrl.org> Subject: [arrl-odv:25125] Re: Repeater App Changes At Minute 9.3 of the October 3, 2015 Executive Committee meeting there is the following summary: 9.3. Mr. Sumner reviewed the history and future prospects of the ARRL Repeater Directory and related products. A new agreement was reached with 54 of 60 repeater frequency coordinators that will result in an improved publication for the 2016-17 Edition. However, the long-term viability of printed directories of any kind is doubtful. There are inexpensive web-based directories and smartphone apps available that accept crowdsourced data and are growing in popularity. Significant investment will be required if the quality of the Repeater Directory and related products is to meet future market expectations and ARRL organizational objectives. In the course of discussion it was generally agreed that there are several factors to be considered in determining whether such an investment is appropriate since the Repeater Directory serves several objectives in addition to generating net revenue in support of the ARRL’s mission. In the course of developing the 2016-17 operational plan it became apparent that we could not continue to support TravelPlus, nor did it make sense to make the investment in the mobile app that would be necessary to make it competitive. This was highlighted in the Chief Operating Officer’s report to the January Board meeting. On the other hand, we couldn’t leave existing users of these products high and dry, so we looked for alternatives. RFinder was among the most cited online resources for listings that are more complete than our ARRL Repeater Directory database products. Our own research found that the RFinder apps have a user base many more times larger than our Repeater Directory apps and software put together. And, the RFinder apps consistently enjoy greater than 4/5 ratings from its subscribers. The ARRL Repeater apps, which never enjoyed anything better than ratings of 2-3, were criticized for missing, incomplete, and static data (updated only once yearly). The TravelPlus software had reached the end of its lifecycle--wrought with Windows incompatibility problems. The developer was unable to keep pace with user demands for feature-rich mobile applications and interest in "Google-like" mapping (TravelPlus used very coarse maps). We could no longer sustain the software support--and its customer base was on the decline (not surprising at $25 to $35 each year). Bob Greenberg, W2CYK, is a longtime ARRL member who had already entered into marketing arrangements with national societies in several other countries, as described in yesterday’s news release. Our due diligence included checking with our sister societies to learn about their experience working with him. So to summarize: 1. We are discontinuing TravelPlus, a product built on an obsolete platform that no longer meets anyone’s expectations and clearly is not worth the investment it would take to update and maintain it. 2. We are discontinuing a mobile app that is uncompetitive and not worth further investment. 3. We are endorsing a different app that is much more useful to end users and will provide a modest revenue stream to the ARRL with little cost or risk. The ARRL has no involvement in providing content for this app. 4. We are continuing to publish the annual Repeater Directory in print form and to compensate repeater coordinators who supply data for the Repeater Directory in accordance with existing agreements. Because there is erroneous information to the contrary in circulation I will say again, with emphasis: The ARRL is NOT providing data to RFinder. Our reading of the current agreement with repeater coordinators who provide data for the printed Repeater Directory is that it prevents us from sharing this data with third parties and we intend to adhere strictly to that reading. 73, Dave K1ZZ ________________________________ _______________________________________________ arrl-odv mailing list arrl-odv@reflector.arrl.org<mailto:arrl-odv@reflector.arrl.org> https://reflector.arrl.org/mailman/listinfo/arrl-odv