[arrl-odv:28123] Re: Visalia DX Convention Happenings Related to ARRL Activities
I believe attendees at Visalia represent an elite group of amateurs, and certainly not the “average” amateur. Thus, from this highly non-random sample, no quantitative conclusions can be made that represent the full range of those in the hobby, or even in the ARRL. In particular, lack of issues with HOAs among Visalia's attendees tells us nothing about the incidence of such problems among average amateurs. 73, Greg, K0GW
The expressed view that - no quantitative conclusions can be made that represent the full range of those in the hobby, or even in the ARRL - would seem logical. However, there was no conclusion made only from the Visalia poll on HOA-impacted Amateurs *alone*. Note the statement at the end of item 1) - *This mirrors my experience at most Forums, where all or mostly all HOA-located hams are on the air - somehow.* To elaborate further - At the 2019 Southwestern Division Convention in Yuma, with approximately 60 attendees, 12 responded that they lived in HOA-impacted areas. 12 said they were on the air. 100%. The convention took place at the same time as the ARRL CW DX Contest, and no DXers or contesters are believed to have been present at the Forum. At the 2019 Quartzfest Forum, with between 100 and 150 attendees, the numbers were 17 and 15. Again most are on the air. Similar results were found at club meetings. This is my 15th year as the Southwestern Division Director. The SW Division alternates between being the second and third largest division in terms of ARRL membership, depending on season. We have the second largest number of HOA's. In all those years I've had one and only one self-initiated request from a member for the ARRL to work to overturn antenna restrictions. I have not heard from him in ten years, and am uncertain of his current status. Admittedly, after the League started the legislative action, there were a few, and I mean a few, who requested such action. There are hams that end up in HOA areas with antenna restrictions, but they generally explain their situation as being unfortunate from a ham radio standpoint, but needed for other reasons in their lives. They don't expect the League to expend effort to change it. I am sympathetic to expanding the ability of HOA-impacted hams to put up antennas, and supported the League's initial legislative approach, even though I did not see it as responsive to any significant member uproar. The Board voted in favor of the plan. I supported the Board. I was upset to hear that the compromise bill had serious flaws that were withheld from the Board, and was not supportive of the compromised act, something that never underwent the slightest bit of Board debate. Today we are at a point where we are debating future HOA-related activities. I'm happy to see some of you expressing facts and viewpoints here on ODV. Please express these to the entire group, not just privately to me, even if you are a Vice Director. In summary - I've found that most HOA-impacted hams seem to be on the air - somehow. 73, Dick Norton, N6AA. On Thu, Apr 18, 2019 at 12:03 PM G Widin <gpwidin@comcast.net> wrote:
I believe attendees at Visalia represent an elite group of amateurs, and certainly not the “average” amateur.
Thus, from this highly non-random sample, no quantitative conclusions can be made that represent the full range of those in the hobby, or even in the ARRL. In particular, lack of issues with HOAs among Visalia's attendees tells us nothing about the incidence of such problems among average amateurs. 73, Greg, K0GW
Dick there is a big difference between "being on the air-somehow" and having an effective antenna system. Shunt feeding your gutter and breaking the rules should not be the expected answer to those in a HOA. The HOA issue is a big deal contrary to your statistics from forum members. I hope the work some on the board in collaboration with others produces a document that can be used to address these issues and lend some help to those that are affected by the HOA rules. Mark Mark J. Tharp KB7HDX ARRL VD NW Div. On Fri, Apr 19, 2019 at 2:45 PM Richard J. Norton <richardjnorton@gmail.com> wrote:
The expressed view that - no quantitative conclusions can be made that represent the full range of those in the hobby, or even in the ARRL - would seem logical. However, there was no conclusion made only from the Visalia poll on HOA-impacted Amateurs *alone*.
Note the statement at the end of item 1) - *This mirrors my experience at most Forums, where all or mostly all HOA-located hams are on the air - somehow.*
To elaborate further -
At the 2019 Southwestern Division Convention in Yuma, with approximately 60 attendees, 12 responded that they lived in HOA-impacted areas. 12 said they were on the air. 100%. The convention took place at the same time as the ARRL CW DX Contest, and no DXers or contesters are believed to have been present at the Forum.
At the 2019 Quartzfest Forum, with between 100 and 150 attendees, the numbers were 17 and 15. Again most are on the air.
Similar results were found at club meetings.
This is my 15th year as the Southwestern Division Director. The SW Division alternates between being the second and third largest division in terms of ARRL membership, depending on season. We have the second largest number of HOA's.
In all those years I've had one and only one self-initiated request from a member for the ARRL to work to overturn antenna restrictions. I have not heard from him in ten years, and am uncertain of his current status. Admittedly, after the League started the legislative action, there were a few, and I mean a few, who requested such action.
There are hams that end up in HOA areas with antenna restrictions, but they generally explain their situation as being unfortunate from a ham radio standpoint, but needed for other reasons in their lives. They don't expect the League to expend effort to change it.
I am sympathetic to expanding the ability of HOA-impacted hams to put up antennas, and supported the League's initial legislative approach, even though I did not see it as responsive to any significant member uproar. The Board voted in favor of the plan. I supported the Board.
I was upset to hear that the compromise bill had serious flaws that were withheld from the Board, and was not supportive of the compromised act, something that never underwent the slightest bit of Board debate.
Today we are at a point where we are debating future HOA-related activities. I'm happy to see some of you expressing facts and viewpoints here on ODV. Please express these to the entire group, not just privately to me, even if you are a Vice Director.
In summary -
I've found that most HOA-impacted hams seem to be on the air - somehow.
73,
Dick Norton, N6AA.
On Thu, Apr 18, 2019 at 12:03 PM G Widin <gpwidin@comcast.net> wrote:
I believe attendees at Visalia represent an elite group of amateurs, and certainly not the “average” amateur.
Thus, from this highly non-random sample, no quantitative conclusions can be made that represent the full range of those in the hobby, or even in the ARRL. In particular, lack of issues with HOAs among Visalia's attendees tells us nothing about the incidence of such problems among average amateurs. 73, Greg, K0GW
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At the same time you’re not going to have a 90’ tower with a tribander (or even a 20’ tower) in most HOA communities. Fred’s paper talked about size appropriate antennas for each property type which I think is a very reasonable, balanced approach. When I got my first DXCC I did it from my car with a 6 foot whip. This was before FT8 so today even better with weak signal modes. I talk to a lot of people with flagpoles and some with invisible wires. It’s not the most effective antenna but it works. And not everyone is on HF - some are on VHF/UHF where the antennas are smaller. 73 Ria N2RJ On Fri, Apr 19, 2019 at 7:47 PM Mark J Tharp <kb7hdx@gmail.com> wrote:
Dick there is a big difference between "being on the air-somehow" and having an effective antenna system. Shunt feeding your gutter and breaking the rules should not be the expected answer to those in a HOA.
The HOA issue is a big deal contrary to your statistics from forum members.
I hope the work some on the board in collaboration with others produces a document that can be used to address these issues and lend some help to those that are affected by the HOA rules.
Mark
Mark J. Tharp KB7HDX ARRL VD NW Div.
On Fri, Apr 19, 2019 at 2:45 PM Richard J. Norton < richardjnorton@gmail.com> wrote:
The expressed view that - no quantitative conclusions can be made that represent the full range of those in the hobby, or even in the ARRL - would seem logical. However, there was no conclusion made only from the Visalia poll on HOA-impacted Amateurs *alone*.
Note the statement at the end of item 1) - *This mirrors my experience at most Forums, where all or mostly all HOA-located hams are on the air - somehow.*
To elaborate further -
At the 2019 Southwestern Division Convention in Yuma, with approximately 60 attendees, 12 responded that they lived in HOA-impacted areas. 12 said they were on the air. 100%. The convention took place at the same time as the ARRL CW DX Contest, and no DXers or contesters are believed to have been present at the Forum.
At the 2019 Quartzfest Forum, with between 100 and 150 attendees, the numbers were 17 and 15. Again most are on the air.
Similar results were found at club meetings.
This is my 15th year as the Southwestern Division Director. The SW Division alternates between being the second and third largest division in terms of ARRL membership, depending on season. We have the second largest number of HOA's.
In all those years I've had one and only one self-initiated request from a member for the ARRL to work to overturn antenna restrictions. I have not heard from him in ten years, and am uncertain of his current status. Admittedly, after the League started the legislative action, there were a few, and I mean a few, who requested such action.
There are hams that end up in HOA areas with antenna restrictions, but they generally explain their situation as being unfortunate from a ham radio standpoint, but needed for other reasons in their lives. They don't expect the League to expend effort to change it.
I am sympathetic to expanding the ability of HOA-impacted hams to put up antennas, and supported the League's initial legislative approach, even though I did not see it as responsive to any significant member uproar. The Board voted in favor of the plan. I supported the Board.
I was upset to hear that the compromise bill had serious flaws that were withheld from the Board, and was not supportive of the compromised act, something that never underwent the slightest bit of Board debate.
Today we are at a point where we are debating future HOA-related activities. I'm happy to see some of you expressing facts and viewpoints here on ODV. Please express these to the entire group, not just privately to me, even if you are a Vice Director.
In summary -
I've found that most HOA-impacted hams seem to be on the air - somehow.
73,
Dick Norton, N6AA.
On Thu, Apr 18, 2019 at 12:03 PM G Widin <gpwidin@comcast.net> wrote:
I believe attendees at Visalia represent an elite group of amateurs, and certainly not the “average” amateur.
Thus, from this highly non-random sample, no quantitative conclusions can be made that represent the full range of those in the hobby, or even in the ARRL. In particular, lack of issues with HOAs among Visalia's attendees tells us nothing about the incidence of such problems among average amateurs. 73, Greg, K0GW
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-- Ria Jairam, N2RJ Director, Hudson Division ARRL - The national association for Amateur Radio™ +1.973.594.6275 https://hudson.arrl.org n2rj@arrl.org
I would suggest even more broadly that those who have found it impossible to put up an antenna, for whatever reason including HOA restrictions, never show up at hamfest forums, because it isn’t worthwhile for them if they can’t get on the air. Take a look at the sampling of reports on antenna restrictions which we assembled for the FCC report attached below. See p. 75 ff And if HOA restrictions were a triviality, why did thousands of hams participate in our letter-writing campaign via Rally Congress as we sought to gain approval of the Parity Act? Ria is of course correct that with sufficient determination, hams will find a way to get on the air. But for each such person, there will be many more who get discouraged and simply give up. Those people don't go to hamfests. 73, Greg, K0GW On Friday, April 19, 2019, rjairam@gmail.com <rjairam@gmail.com> wrote:
At the same time you’re not going to have a 90’ tower with a tribander (or even a 20’ tower) in most HOA communities.
Fred’s paper talked about size appropriate antennas for each property type which I think is a very reasonable, balanced approach.
When I got my first DXCC I did it from my car with a 6 foot whip. This was before FT8 so today even better with weak signal modes.
I talk to a lot of people with flagpoles and some with invisible wires. It’s not the most effective antenna but it works.
And not everyone is on HF - some are on VHF/UHF where the antennas are smaller.
73 Ria N2RJ
On Fri, Apr 19, 2019 at 7:47 PM Mark J Tharp <kb7hdx@gmail.com> wrote:
Dick there is a big difference between "being on the air-somehow" and having an effective antenna system. Shunt feeding your gutter and breaking the rules should not be the expected answer to those in a HOA.
The HOA issue is a big deal contrary to your statistics from forum members.
I hope the work some on the board in collaboration with others produces a document that can be used to address these issues and lend some help to those that are affected by the HOA rules.
Mark
Mark J. Tharp KB7HDX ARRL VD NW Div.
On Fri, Apr 19, 2019 at 2:45 PM Richard J. Norton < richardjnorton@gmail.com> wrote:
The expressed view that - no quantitative conclusions can be made that represent the full range of those in the hobby, or even in the ARRL - would seem logical. However, there was no conclusion made only from the Visalia poll on HOA-impacted Amateurs *alone*.
Note the statement at the end of item 1) - *This mirrors my experience at most Forums, where all or mostly all HOA-located hams are on the air - somehow.*
To elaborate further -
At the 2019 Southwestern Division Convention in Yuma, with approximately 60 attendees, 12 responded that they lived in HOA-impacted areas. 12 said they were on the air. 100%. The convention took place at the same time as the ARRL CW DX Contest, and no DXers or contesters are believed to have been present at the Forum.
At the 2019 Quartzfest Forum, with between 100 and 150 attendees, the numbers were 17 and 15. Again most are on the air.
Similar results were found at club meetings.
This is my 15th year as the Southwestern Division Director. The SW Division alternates between being the second and third largest division in terms of ARRL membership, depending on season. We have the second largest number of HOA's.
In all those years I've had one and only one self-initiated request from a member for the ARRL to work to overturn antenna restrictions. I have not heard from him in ten years, and am uncertain of his current status. Admittedly, after the League started the legislative action, there were a few, and I mean a few, who requested such action.
There are hams that end up in HOA areas with antenna restrictions, but they generally explain their situation as being unfortunate from a ham radio standpoint, but needed for other reasons in their lives. They don't expect the League to expend effort to change it.
I am sympathetic to expanding the ability of HOA-impacted hams to put up antennas, and supported the League's initial legislative approach, even though I did not see it as responsive to any significant member uproar. The Board voted in favor of the plan. I supported the Board.
I was upset to hear that the compromise bill had serious flaws that were withheld from the Board, and was not supportive of the compromised act, something that never underwent the slightest bit of Board debate.
Today we are at a point where we are debating future HOA-related activities. I'm happy to see some of you expressing facts and viewpoints here on ODV. Please express these to the entire group, not just privately to me, even if you are a Vice Director.
In summary -
I've found that most HOA-impacted hams seem to be on the air - somehow.
73,
Dick Norton, N6AA.
On Thu, Apr 18, 2019 at 12:03 PM G Widin <gpwidin@comcast.net> wrote:
I believe attendees at Visalia represent an elite group of amateurs, and certainly not the “average” amateur.
Thus, from this highly non-random sample, no quantitative conclusions can be made that represent the full range of those in the hobby, or even in the ARRL. In particular, lack of issues with HOAs among Visalia's attendees tells us nothing about the incidence of such problems among average amateurs. 73, Greg, K0GW
_______________________________________________ arrl-odv mailing list arrl-odv@reflector.arrl.org https://reflector.arrl.org/mailman/listinfo/arrl-odv
_______________________________________________ arrl-odv mailing list arrl-odv@reflector.arrl.org https://reflector.arrl.org/mailman/listinfo/arrl-odv
-- Ria Jairam, N2RJ Director, Hudson Division ARRL - The national association for Amateur Radio™ +1.973.594.6275 https://hudson.arrl.org n2rj@arrl.org
participants (4)
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G Widin -
Mark J Tharp -
Richard J. Norton -
rjairam＠gmail.com