John, I don't know what that little tirade of yours was all about, but what I was asking (and it seemed rather simple to me), was whether or not there existed any technical studies of this phenomenon, or not? If not, then we would presumably generate our own, if this was deemed a worthwhile project. But since we have a committee with expertise on the topic of EMC, perhaps they would like to be given the task of investigating this. But by all means if you think we should "lead" without doing any factual investigation of the subject matter, don't let me stop you. Chris On Wed, May 16, 2018 at 1:19 PM, John Robert Stratton <N5AUS@n5aus.com> wrote:

For Hiram's sake, why is it we must always cower in fear, always demand that someone else take the lead, always demand that some Deus ex Machina agency set the path?

We published a QST article about solar panel interference and the extensive efforts of one of our Members to mitigate that interference. One would think that would indicate that the ARRL had an inkling that improperly installed solar panels might, just might, generate unwanted RFI. Or have we descended into publishing fiction?

WE ARE SUPPOSED TO BE LEADERS. SO WHY DON'T WE HITCH UP OUR BRITCHES AND LEAD?

Good grief, Charley Brown!!!

73

_______________________________________

John Robert Stratton

N5AUS

Vice Director

Legislative Director

West Gulf Division

Office: 512-445-6262

Cell: 512-426-2028

P.O. Box 2232

Austin, Texas 78768-2232

*_______________________________________* On 5/16/18 11:28 AM, Christopher Imlay wrote:

Are there studies that demonstrate that solar panels emit RF noise, or is that something that we would have to create from scratch?

Kermit's EMC Committee would likely be the proper entity to look into this. It seems to me that existing FCC Part 15 regulations will address the interference obligation, and an education effort by ARRL and perhaps an FCC Public Notice would be good first steps in addressing this. Normally, advocates at FCC in a situation like this would prepare the text of a public notice and ask FCC to release it.

Chris W3KD

On Wed, May 16, 2018 at 12:02 PM, Richard J. Norton, N6AA <n6aa@arrl.net> wrote:

...

This is to notify the Board that California has passed a law that requires new housing built after 2020 to have solar panels installed on the roof.

Hams are afraid that this will be a large source of noise, and are suggesting that the League get involved to minimize future problems.

73,

Dick Norton, N6AA

---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: <n6cw@san.rr.com> Date: Tue, May 15, 2018 at 1:50 PM Subject: Solar panels To: w6ya@cox.net, w6yi@aol.com, jim@long-path.com, w6kh@cox.net, w1uo.cqdx@gmail.com, k6na@cts.com, marko.l.myllymaki@gmail.com, w7bia@cox.net, n6ki@sbcglobal.net, jnprice@pacbell.net, k6am@arrl.net, hlserra@gmail.com Cc: n6aa@arrl.net

Am I the only one who is alarmed at the recent ruling in California that all new housing being built starting in 2020 will have to have solar panels installed?

It is probably reasonable to assume this will be done on the cheap with crappy components and with no regard or oversight as to the radiation consequences of this action.

While the time frame is tight it would seem prudent for us, local clubs, the ARRL and the FCC to get involved in this to make the installers adhere to a set of rules to prevent radiation.

Anyone have any input on this and suggestions on where to start?

Terry/N6CW

Randy Standke <r55stan@gmail.com> 3:13 PM (17 hours ago)

to n6cw, w6ya, w6yi, jim, w6kh, w1uo.cqdx, k6na, marko.l.myllym., w7bia, n6ki, jnprice, k6am, hlserra, n6aa While it is true that hams can't tell anyone that having solar power violates FCC laws. They (or a letter from the FCC) can tell them they need to fix a solar system that is causing interference. So, for example, if a housing tract gets built with SolarEdge components, SolarEdge will likely be called to do their twisted wires ferrite filter retrofit. I have seen them do this in about four hours per house and it almost completely eliminates the RFI from that neighbor.

The possibly good news is SolarEdge says they will start using new "optimizers" (these are DC to DC converters) that are clean in about one or two years. Maybe this will be in time for the 2020 projects. The bad news is SolarEdge will continue installing their systems using economical ham radio jamming wiring methods (a big loop antenna) until then. And unfortunately, SolarEdge systems seem to be the most popular now. As far as I have seen, other brands of solar power on neighbor's roofs don't RFI hams.

By the way, a SolarEdge engineer told me I should find more interesting things to do with my time than help other hams identify RFI caused by SolarEdge systems. I see his point. If hams don't know where the RFI is coming from they won't know who to complain to.

73,

Randy KQ6RS

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-- Christopher D. Imlay Booth, Freret & Imlay, LLC 14356 Cape May Road Silver Spring, Maryland 20904-6011 (301) 384-5525 telephone (301) 384-6384 facsimile W3KD@ARRL.ORG

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-- Christopher D. Imlay Booth, Freret & Imlay, LLC 14356 Cape May Road Silver Spring, Maryland 20904-6011 (301) 384-5525 telephone (301) 384-6384 facsimile W3KD@ARRL.ORG

Hello All;        I would like to give a quick report of what has been done by the ARRL Laband the ARRL EMC Committee, what is understood about the issue of interferencefrom solar panel systems and the regulatory framework under which these systems operate.       First,  the ARRL Laboratory has received and helped solve several complaintsof noise from solar power panel installations.  The majority of complaints have arisenfrom the installations that use equipment from one specific manufacturer with complaints related to issues arising from installations that utilize devices from other manufacturers a distant second in number. This has been referenced in a number of EMC Committee reports.         The manufacturer involved in particular , Solar Edge, located in Israel, has beencooperating with the ARRL with the resolution of identified harmful interference to amateur problems on a case-by-case basis.  Since this method of resolution is time consuming, expensive, and could easily outstrip the available manpower both at the manufacturer field service level and at the ARRL we are anxiously awaiting fulfillment of the promise by Solar Edge that  corrections to their design will soon be in the marketplace and distribution chain.        Specific to this problem is that the noise arises from what is called an optimizer.The optimizer connects directly to the solar panels and not to the AC mains, so oneissue is that this source of potential interference is powered, without an interrupt notfrom AC mains but from the solar panel.  This also gives rise to the regulatory portion ofthe problem.           The second issue that is encompassed with solar panel interference is related to how thesesystems and devices are tested.   Since the solar power system will connect to the ACMains, both conducted and radiated emission tests are required for the system.  The conducted emissionshave limits established at the point where the device or system connects to the AC Mains.Those limits apply for frequencies below 30 MHz.  Radiated emission limits apply to frequencies above 30 MHz.  In the situation of the Solar Edge optimizer, only radiatedemission limits apply since the device is never directly connected to the AC Mains.         The ARRL does have the copy of the lab reported used by Solar Edge to obtainthe authorization to market and sell their devices and systems, the measurements doindicate that it is within the limits of the applicable regulations.         That being said, the emissions and conduction of a solar panel system must betested and found to have been measured within the limits but this is done in a laboratorysetting and not in the field.  If such a system is properly installed with methods as simpleas the proper twist and routing of the solar panel leads, the potential is greatly reduced.The issue here is that building codes that would cover specifics such as this usuallyinvolve references to national standards such as the  NFPA-70  NEC (National Electric Code)for wiring which is based on the sole concern involving fire and personnel safety.The success in preventing emissions by proper methods of installation will definitelybe related to the use of properly constructed and tested components and followingcorrect methods for installation. This will be a large variable as a state mandate willinevitably give rise to the use of components that have not been test, may not be complaintcoupled with the use of installation methods that may at best be capable of preventingfires but not potential harmful interference to licensed users of the radio spectrum.              I can point to various portions of the EMC Committee reports and articles in QSTthat detail the present understanding of the potential problems. I am sorry for any delayin this response but typing over the weekend on a 2" screen has not been productiveand I have waited for my return home to respond.  Please respond to the reflectorwith any questions.              It would be most helpful if someone would post or forward the link to theCalifornia statute.  I am especially interested to see if the ordering clauses referenceany technical industry standards.                                         73, Kermit Carlson W9XA         On Wednesday, May 16, 2018, 11:28:31 AM CDT, Christopher Imlay <w3kd.arrl@gmail.com> wrote: Are there studies that demonstrate that solar panels emit RF noise, or is that something that we would have to create from scratch?  Kermit's EMC Committee would likely be the proper entity to look into this. It seems to me that existing FCC Part 15 regulations will address the interference obligation, and an education effort by ARRL and perhaps an FCC Public Notice would be good first steps in addressing this. Normally, advocates at FCC in a situation like this would prepare the text of a public notice and ask FCC to release it.  Chris W3KD On Wed, May 16, 2018 at 12:02 PM, Richard J. Norton, N6AA <n6aa@arrl.net> wrote: This is to notify the Board that California has passed a law that requires new housing built after 2020 to have solar panels installed on the roof.  Hams are afraid that this will be a large source of noise, and are suggesting that the League get involved to minimize future problems. 73, Dick Norton, N6AA ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: <n6cw@san.rr.com> Date: Tue, May 15, 2018 at 1:50 PM Subject: Solar panels To: w6ya@cox.net, w6yi@aol.com, jim@long-path.com, w6kh@cox.net, w1uo.cqdx@gmail.com, k6na@cts.com, marko.l.myllymaki@gmail.com, w7bia@cox.net, n6ki@sbcglobal.net, jnprice@pacbell.net, k6am@arrl.net, hlserra@gmail.com Cc: n6aa@arrl.net Am I the only one who is alarmed at the recent ruling in California that all new housing being built starting in 2020 will have to have solar panels installed? It is probably reasonable to assume this will be done on the cheap with crappy components and with no regard or oversight as to the radiation consequences of this action. While the time frame is tight it would seem prudent for us, local clubs, the ARRL and the FCC to get involved in this to make the installers adhere to a set of rules to prevent radiation. Anyone have any input on this and suggestions on where to start? Terry/N6CW | | Randy Standke <r55stan@gmail.com> | | 3:13 PM (17 hours ago) | | | | | to n6cw, w6ya, w6yi, jim, w6kh , w1uo.cqdx, k6na, marko.l. myllym., w7bia, n6ki, jnprice,  k6am, hlserra, n6aa | | While it is true that hams can't tell anyone that having solar power violates FCC laws.  They (or a letter from the FCC) can tell them they need to fix a solar system that is causing interference.  So, for example, if a housing tract gets built with SolarEdge components, SolarEdge will likely be called to do their twisted wires ferrite filter retrofit.  I have seen them do this in about four hours per house and it almost completely eliminates the RFI from that neighbor. The possibly good news is SolarEdge says they will start using new "optimizers" (these are DC to DC converters) that are clean in about one or two years.  Maybe this will be in time for the 2020 projects.  The bad news is SolarEdge will continue installing their systems using economical ham radio jamming wiring methods (a big loop antenna) until then.  And unfortunately, SolarEdge systems seem to be the most popular now.  As far as I have seen, other brands of solar power on neighbor's roofs don't RFI hams. By the way, a SolarEdge engineer told me I should find more interesting things to do with my time than help other hams identify RFI caused by SolarEdge systems.  I see his point.  If hams don't know where the RFI is coming from they won't know who to complain to. 73, Randy KQ6RS ______________________________ _________________ arrl-odv mailing list arrl-odv@reflector.arrl.org https://reflector.arrl.org/ mailman/listinfo/arrl-odv -- Christopher D. ImlayBooth, Freret & Imlay, LLC14356 Cape May RoadSilver Spring, Maryland 20904-6011(301) 384-5525 telephone(301) 384-6384 facsimileW3KD@ARRL.ORG_______________________________________________ arrl-odv mailing list arrl-odv@reflector.arrl.org https://reflector.arrl.org/mailman/listinfo/arrl-odv