[arrl-odv:32357] Digital Voice Calling Frequencies ?
Hello All - I have two questions - 1. Are there any VHF Calling frequencies in common use for Digital Voice (DV) on VHF/UHF?From what I have observed this is local option. 2. With the proliferation of varied DV modes - it is hard to imagine a frequency for >each< mode, and with the AM users (about 8 in Chicago asking the same question) it seems ridiculous to carve out spectral playgrounds for a few dozen ops on each “non-FM mode”. My answer will be; find a frequency in the “simplex” FM portion of the bands that is little used in your area and avoid the satellite and weak signal portions of the bands. IMHO, we do not want to be involved with the selection of a National recommendation. Also, with the lack of activity on the bands this is definitely a solution looking for a problem. Another point is that hearing other Activity on “your” frequency does not constitute interference if the frequency is not in use... Any thoughts from the Board before I respond ? 73, Kermit W9XA ps - The Chicago AM ops used to gather on 144.35 MHz based on the history from the days of the “Club Saver” transceiver built by the hundreds by the WCRA (Wheaton Community Radio Amateurs). I have seen AM “nets” on 144.144 - luckily too high in the band for QRM with 2M EME. From: Ronald F. Henry <n9kww@msn.com> Sent: Wednesday, May 12, 2021 2:20 PM Subject: Digital voice simplex frequency recommendations Dear sir: with the increased use of DMR,P-25 and DSTAR digital voice modes, a question has come up regarding the national simplex frequency. Historically that was considered the national simplex frequency for analog voice, with the new digital modes using that frequency will over time cause jamming and interference, since analog users cannot decode digital mode. In addition even the various digital mode cannot detect other digital modes as well. DSTAR and DMR user groups have unofficially designated VHF and UHF (primarily in the 2 meter and 70 CM bands) frequencies for simplex use on those modes. Most coordination councils have taken a hands off approach , this leads to repeater and simplex interference and conflicts. It is apparent that the one frequency concept is no longer a viable option. Granted simplex use overall is low, however with the proliferation of cheap easy to use digital handheld radios, simplex use with digital voice will become widely available and in use, this will lead to more interference reports and frustration from older hams still using wideband fm analog. The question we have is what is the ARRL’s recommendation the use of the national simplex frequencies with digital voice modes? What are the thoughts of the ARRL regarding the use of other frequencies for mode specific DV use? Has there been any thought into separating DV from analog voice in simplex operation? Thank you for you diligence inti this mater Ron Henry KB9ZB President Pewaukee Amateur Radio Club (PARC) Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
Kermit Your proposed answer is a good simple one. There are plenty of places in the simplex portion of the bands that can accommodate the DMR and Fusion conversations. Here in TN we don’t have an issue with differing modes conflicting. On both 2M and 70cm, frequencies about 15kc off the FM calling frequency are used for other modes. We don’t need to get into this supposed fight over setting up a separate calling freq for each mode. Ed B. Hudgens, P. E., Ret. Emergency Coordinator – Williamson County – WCARES WCEMA Reserve Member Vice Director, Delta Division ARRL Net Manager - ARRL Delta Div. Emergency Net 1441 Wexford Downs Lane Nashville, TN, 37211 C – 615-630-2753 From: arrl-odv <arrl-odv-bounces@reflector.arrl.org> On Behalf Of Kermit Carlson via arrl-odv Sent: Thursday, May 13, 2021 8:11 AM To: Arrl-odv <arrl-odv@arrl.org> Subject: [arrl-odv:32357] Digital Voice Calling Frequencies ? Hello All - I have two questions - 1. Are there any VHF Calling frequencies in common use for Digital Voice (DV) on VHF/UHF?
From what I have observed this is local option.
2. With the proliferation of varied DV modes - it is hard to imagine a frequency for >each< mode, and with the AM users (about 8 in Chicago asking the same question) it seems ridiculous to carve out spectral playgrounds for a few dozen ops on each “non-FM mode”. My answer will be; find a frequency in the “simplex” FM portion of the bands that is little used in your area and avoid the satellite and weak signal portions of the bands. IMHO, we do not want to be involved with the selection of a National recommendation. Also, with the lack of activity on the bands this is definitely a solution looking for a problem. Another point is that hearing other Activity on “your” frequency does not constitute interference if the frequency is not in use... Any thoughts from the Board before I respond ? 73, Kermit W9XA ps - The Chicago AM ops used to gather on 144.35 MHz based on the history from the days of the “Club Saver” transceiver built by the hundreds by the WCRA (Wheaton Community Radio Amateurs). I have seen AM “nets” on 144.144 - luckily too high in the band for QRM with 2M EME. From: Ronald F. Henry <n9kww@msn.com <mailto:n9kww@msn.com> > Sent: Wednesday, May 12, 2021 2:20 PM Subject: Digital voice simplex frequency recommendations Dear sir: with the increased use of DMR,P-25 and DSTAR digital voice modes, a question has come up regarding the national simplex frequency. Historically that was considered the national simplex frequency for analog voice, with the new digital modes using that frequency will over time cause jamming and interference, since analog users cannot decode digital mode. In addition even the various digital mode cannot detect other digital modes as well. DSTAR and DMR user groups have unofficially designated VHF and UHF (primarily in the 2 meter and 70 CM bands) frequencies for simplex use on those modes. Most coordination councils have taken a hands off approach , this leads to repeater and simplex interference and conflicts. It is apparent that the one frequency concept is no longer a viable option. Granted simplex use overall is low, however with the proliferation of cheap easy to use digital handheld radios, simplex use with digital voice will become widely available and in use, this will lead to more interference reports and frustration from older hams still using wideband fm analog. The question we have is what is the ARRL’s recommendation the use of the national simplex frequencies with digital voice modes? What are the thoughts of the ARRL regarding the use of other frequencies for mode specific DV use? Has there been any thought into separating DV from analog voice in simplex operation? Thank you for you diligence inti this mater Ron Henry KB9ZB President Pewaukee Amateur Radio Club (PARC) Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone <https://overview.mail.yahoo.com/?.src=iOS>
This is a non-issue as most who use digital modes are using them on repeaters and hotspots. However I could see where groups can form their own unofficial calling frequencies and share among themselves. No need for us to do it really. Ria N2RJ On Thu, May 13, 2021 at 9:11 AM Kermit Carlson via arrl-odv < arrl-odv@reflector.arrl.org> wrote:
Hello All -
I have two questions -
1. Are there any VHF Calling frequencies in common use for Digital Voice (DV) on VHF/UHF? From what I have observed this is local option.
2. With the proliferation of varied DV modes - it is hard to imagine a frequency for >each< mode, and with the AM users (about 8 in Chicago asking the same question) it seems ridiculous to carve out spectral playgrounds for a few dozen ops on each “non-FM mode”. My answer will be; find a frequency in the “simplex” FM portion of the bands that is little used in your area and avoid the satellite and weak signal portions of the bands.
IMHO, we do not want to be involved with the selection of a National recommendation. Also, with the lack of activity on the bands this is definitely a solution looking for a problem. Another point is that hearing other Activity on “your” frequency does not constitute interference if the frequency is not in use...
Any thoughts from the Board before I respond ?
73, Kermit W9XA
ps - The Chicago AM ops used to gather on 144.35 MHz based on the history from the days of the “Club Saver” transceiver built by the hundreds by the WCRA (Wheaton Community Radio Amateurs). I have seen AM “nets” on 144.144 - luckily too high in the band for QRM with 2M EME.
*From:* Ronald F. Henry <n9kww@msn.com> *Sent:* Wednesday, May 12, 2021 2:20 PM *Subject:* Digital voice simplex frequency recommendations
Dear sir: with the increased use of DMR,P-25 and DSTAR digital voice modes, a question has come up regarding the national simplex frequency. Historically that was considered the national simplex frequency for analog voice, with the new digital modes using that frequency will over time cause jamming and interference, since analog users cannot decode digital mode. In addition even the various digital mode cannot detect other digital modes as well. DSTAR and DMR user groups have unofficially designated VHF and UHF (primarily in the 2 meter and 70 CM bands) frequencies for simplex use on those modes. Most coordination councils have taken a hands off approach , this leads to repeater and simplex interference and conflicts. It is apparent that the one frequency concept is no longer a viable option. Granted simplex use overall is low, however with the proliferation of cheap easy to use digital handheld radios, simplex use with digital voice will become widely available and in use, this will lead to more interference reports and frustration from older hams still using wideband fm analog.
The question we have is what is the ARRL’s recommendation the use of the national simplex frequencies with digital voice modes? What are the thoughts of the ARRL regarding the use of other frequencies for mode specific DV use? Has there been any thought into separating DV from analog voice in simplex operation?
Thank you for you diligence inti this mater
Ron Henry
KB9ZB
President Pewaukee Amateur Radio Club (PARC)
Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone <https://overview.mail.yahoo.com/?.src=iOS> _______________________________________________ arrl-odv mailing list arrl-odv@reflector.arrl.org https://reflector.arrl.org/mailman/listinfo/arrl-odv
Agree with Ria, but I understand that might want to note various use cases in a band plan... The national DStar calling 2m frequency has been established as 145.67. W6BSD captures info here, which is the same in some widely distributed DMR code plugs: https://0x9900.com/dmr-or-c4fm-simplex-frequencies/ 73, Mickey N4MB Get Outlook for iOS<https://aka.ms/o0ukef> ________________________________ From: arrl-odv <arrl-odv-bounces@reflector.arrl.org> on behalf of rjairam@gmail.com <rjairam@gmail.com> Sent: Thursday, May 13, 2021 10:31:55 AM To: Carlson, Kermit, W9XA (Dir, CD) <W9XA@yahoo.com> Cc: arrl-odv <arrl-odv@arrl.org> Subject: [arrl-odv:32359] Re: Digital Voice Calling Frequencies ? This is a non-issue as most who use digital modes are using them on repeaters and hotspots. However I could see where groups can form their own unofficial calling frequencies and share among themselves. No need for us to do it really. Ria N2RJ On Thu, May 13, 2021 at 9:11 AM Kermit Carlson via arrl-odv <arrl-odv@reflector.arrl.org<mailto:arrl-odv@reflector.arrl.org>> wrote: Hello All - I have two questions - 1. Are there any VHF Calling frequencies in common use for Digital Voice (DV) on VHF/UHF?
From what I have observed this is local option.
2. With the proliferation of varied DV modes - it is hard to imagine a frequency for >each< mode, and with the AM users (about 8 in Chicago asking the same question) it seems ridiculous to carve out spectral playgrounds for a few dozen ops on each “non-FM mode”. My answer will be; find a frequency in the “simplex” FM portion of the bands that is little used in your area and avoid the satellite and weak signal portions of the bands. IMHO, we do not want to be involved with the selection of a National recommendation. Also, with the lack of activity on the bands this is definitely a solution looking for a problem. Another point is that hearing other Activity on “your” frequency does not constitute interference if the frequency is not in use... Any thoughts from the Board before I respond ? 73, Kermit W9XA ps - The Chicago AM ops used to gather on 144.35 MHz based on the history from the days of the “Club Saver” transceiver built by the hundreds by the WCRA (Wheaton Community Radio Amateurs). I have seen AM “nets” on 144.144 - luckily too high in the band for QRM with 2M EME. From: Ronald F. Henry <n9kww@msn.com<mailto:n9kww@msn.com>> Sent: Wednesday, May 12, 2021 2:20 PM Subject: Digital voice simplex frequency recommendations Dear sir: with the increased use of DMR,P-25 and DSTAR digital voice modes, a question has come up regarding the national simplex frequency. Historically that was considered the national simplex frequency for analog voice, with the new digital modes using that frequency will over time cause jamming and interference, since analog users cannot decode digital mode. In addition even the various digital mode cannot detect other digital modes as well. DSTAR and DMR user groups have unofficially designated VHF and UHF (primarily in the 2 meter and 70 CM bands) frequencies for simplex use on those modes. Most coordination councils have taken a hands off approach , this leads to repeater and simplex interference and conflicts. It is apparent that the one frequency concept is no longer a viable option. Granted simplex use overall is low, however with the proliferation of cheap easy to use digital handheld radios, simplex use with digital voice will become widely available and in use, this will lead to more interference reports and frustration from older hams still using wideband fm analog. The question we have is what is the ARRL’s recommendation the use of the national simplex frequencies with digital voice modes? What are the thoughts of the ARRL regarding the use of other frequencies for mode specific DV use? Has there been any thought into separating DV from analog voice in simplex operation? Thank you for you diligence inti this mater Ron Henry KB9ZB President Pewaukee Amateur Radio Club (PARC) Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone<https://overview.mail.yahoo.com/?.src=iOS> _______________________________________________ arrl-odv mailing list arrl-odv@reflector.arrl.org<mailto:arrl-odv@reflector.arrl.org> https://reflector.arrl.org/mailman/listinfo/arrl-odv
Kermit, I'm going to agree with the others in agreeing with your solution. One thing I think of in these situations is we do not want to become frequency police. Once an organization declares a frequency for a specific use, people will be watching and expecting enforcement for that use. Yes there are times when some coordination is desirable, this is not one of them. Bill AC0W On Thu, May 13, 2021, 08:11 Kermit Carlson via arrl-odv < arrl-odv@reflector.arrl.org> wrote:
Hello All -
I have two questions -
1. Are there any VHF Calling frequencies in common use for Digital Voice (DV) on VHF/UHF? From what I have observed this is local option.
2. With the proliferation of varied DV modes - it is hard to imagine a frequency for >each< mode, and with the AM users (about 8 in Chicago asking the same question) it seems ridiculous to carve out spectral playgrounds for a few dozen ops on each “non-FM mode”. My answer will be; find a frequency in the “simplex” FM portion of the bands that is little used in your area and avoid the satellite and weak signal portions of the bands.
IMHO, we do not want to be involved with the selection of a National recommendation. Also, with the lack of activity on the bands this is definitely a solution looking for a problem. Another point is that hearing other Activity on “your” frequency does not constitute interference if the frequency is not in use...
Any thoughts from the Board before I respond ?
73, Kermit W9XA
ps - The Chicago AM ops used to gather on 144.35 MHz based on the history from the days of the “Club Saver” transceiver built by the hundreds by the WCRA (Wheaton Community Radio Amateurs). I have seen AM “nets” on 144.144 - luckily too high in the band for QRM with 2M EME.
*From:* Ronald F. Henry <n9kww@msn.com> *Sent:* Wednesday, May 12, 2021 2:20 PM *Subject:* Digital voice simplex frequency recommendations
Dear sir: with the increased use of DMR,P-25 and DSTAR digital voice modes, a question has come up regarding the national simplex frequency. Historically that was considered the national simplex frequency for analog voice, with the new digital modes using that frequency will over time cause jamming and interference, since analog users cannot decode digital mode. In addition even the various digital mode cannot detect other digital modes as well. DSTAR and DMR user groups have unofficially designated VHF and UHF (primarily in the 2 meter and 70 CM bands) frequencies for simplex use on those modes. Most coordination councils have taken a hands off approach , this leads to repeater and simplex interference and conflicts. It is apparent that the one frequency concept is no longer a viable option. Granted simplex use overall is low, however with the proliferation of cheap easy to use digital handheld radios, simplex use with digital voice will become widely available and in use, this will lead to more interference reports and frustration from older hams still using wideband fm analog.
The question we have is what is the ARRL’s recommendation the use of the national simplex frequencies with digital voice modes? What are the thoughts of the ARRL regarding the use of other frequencies for mode specific DV use? Has there been any thought into separating DV from analog voice in simplex operation?
Thank you for you diligence inti this mater
Ron Henry
KB9ZB
President Pewaukee Amateur Radio Club (PARC)
Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone <https://overview.mail.yahoo.com/?.src=iOS> _______________________________________________ arrl-odv mailing list arrl-odv@reflector.arrl.org https://reflector.arrl.org/mailman/listinfo/arrl-odv
Suggest that any response from the League should refer hams to their regional frequency coordinator(s). There is likely no single “right” answer that works in all parts of the country. 73, Dick, N6AA On Thursday, May 13, 2021, 06:11:42 AM PDT, Kermit Carlson via arrl-odv <arrl-odv@reflector.arrl.org> wrote: Hello All - I have two questions - 1. Are there any VHF Calling frequencies in common use for Digital Voice (DV) on VHF/UHF?
From what I have observed this is local option.
2. With the proliferation of varied DV modes - it is hard to imagine a frequency for >each< mode, and with the AM users (about 8 in Chicago asking the same question) it seems ridiculous to carve out spectral playgrounds for a few dozen ops on each “non-FM mode”. My answer will be; find a frequency in the “simplex” FM portion of the bands that is little used in your area and avoid the satellite and weak signal portions of the bands. IMHO, we do not want to be involved with the selection of a National recommendation. Also, with the lack of activity on the bands this is definitely a solution looking for a problem. Another point is that hearing other Activity on “your” frequency does not constitute interference if the frequency is not in use... Any thoughts from the Board before I respond ? 73, Kermit W9XA ps - The Chicago AM ops used to gather on 144.35 MHz based on the history from the days of the “Club Saver” transceiver built by the hundreds by the WCRA (Wheaton Community Radio Amateurs). I have seen AM “nets” on 144.144 - luckily too high in the band for QRM with 2M EME. From: Ronald F. Henry <n9kww@msn.com> Sent: Wednesday, May 12, 2021 2:20 PM Subject: Digital voice simplex frequency recommendations Dear sir: with the increased use of DMR,P-25 and DSTAR digital voice modes, a question has come up regarding the national simplex frequency. Historically that was considered the national simplex frequency for analog voice, with the new digital modes using that frequency will over time cause jamming and interference, since analog users cannot decode digital mode. In addition even the various digital mode cannot detect other digital modes as well. DSTAR and DMR user groups have unofficially designated VHF and UHF (primarily in the 2 meter and 70 CM bands) frequencies for simplex use on those modes. Most coordination councils have taken a hands off approach , this leads to repeater and simplex interference and conflicts. It is apparent that the one frequency concept is no longer a viable option. Granted simplex use overall is low, however with the proliferation of cheap easy to use digital handheld radios, simplex use with digital voice will become widely available and in use, this will lead to more interference reports and frustration from older hams still using wideband fm analog. The question we have is what is the ARRL’s recommendation the use of the national simplex frequencies with digital voice modes? What are the thoughts of the ARRL regarding the use of other frequencies for mode specific DV use? Has there been any thought into separating DV from analog voice in simplex operation? Thank you for you diligence inti this mater Ron Henry KB9ZB President Pewaukee Amateur Radio Club (PARC) Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone _______________________________________________ arrl-odv mailing list arrl-odv@reflector.arrl.org https://reflector.arrl.org/mailman/listinfo/arrl-odv
Dick's response is supposed to be the right answer. I understand our League has a suggested plan - and it should, but we need to promote the fact that we defer to area coordinators, most of which have published plans. Members tell me they have never heard of that caveat. My local group in EPA/SNJ www.ARCC-inc.org <http://www.ARCC-inc.org> does that, ( see under documents) but many hams push back because they have no idea ARRL's plan deferred to local coordinators. See one example from the other day sent to me for comment. This is common type of issue, including complaints about repeaters on legit simplex frequencies (we have many of them as crossband repeaters/nodes) and such here in the Tri-state area of PA/NJ/DE (I-95 corridor between NYC, Philly, DC) jammed pack with hams who ignore agreements because they do not know: On 5/7/2021 10:07 AM, [ARCC official] to K3RF:
I really wish the League would stop publishing VHF/UHF bandplans. They are doing far more harm than good, especially considering they haven't even revised them in decades. Please see below (cut and paste of the back-and-forth exchange via the ARCC web site "Contact" feature:
[Clutter redacted for ODV pasting]
MESSAGE Hello I am wondering why and how you are allowing the use of simplex dedicated frequencies and are assigning repeaters to them. There are a large group of hams that use simplex and you are giving our frequencies to repeaters. I believe this is corrupt. Please let me know how this is possible.
Darrin W2OMU Form Submission May 5, 1:46 PM
Bob Famiglio, K3RF Vice Director - ARRL Atlantic Division 610-359-7300 www.QRZ.com/db/K3RF -----Original Message----- From: arrl-odv On Behalf Of Richard Norton via arrl-odv Sent: Thursday, May 13, 2021 1:15 PM To: Arrl-odv <arrl-odv@arrl.org>; Kermit Carlson <w9xa@yahoo.com> Subject: [arrl-odv:32363] Re: Digital Voice Calling Frequencies ? Suggest that any response from the League should refer hams to their regional frequency coordinator(s). There is likely no single “right” answer that works in all parts of the country. 73, Dick, N6AA On Thursday, May 13, 2021, 06:11:42 AM PDT, Kermit Carlson via arrl-odv <arrl-odv@reflector.arrl.org <mailto:arrl-odv@reflector.arrl.org> > wrote: Hello All - I have two questions - 1. Are there any VHF Calling frequencies in common use for Digital Voice (DV) on VHF/UHF?
From what I have observed this is local option.
2. With the proliferation of varied DV modes - it is hard to imagine a frequency for >each< mode, and with the AM users (about 8 in Chicago asking the same question) it seems ridiculous to carve out spectral playgrounds for a few dozen ops on each “non-FM mode”. My answer will be; find a frequency in the “simplex” FM portion of the bands that is little used in your area and avoid the satellite and weak signal portions of the bands. IMHO, we do not want to be involved with the selection of a National recommendation. Also, with the lack of activity on the bands this is definitely a solution looking for a problem. Another point is that hearing other Activity on “your” frequency does not constitute interference if the frequency is not in use... Any thoughts from the Board before I respond ? 73, Kermit W9XA ps - The Chicago AM ops used to gather on 144.35 MHz based on the history from the days of the “Club Saver” transceiver built by the hundreds by the WCRA (Wheaton Community Radio Amateurs). I have seen AM “nets” on 144.144 - luckily too high in the band for QRM with 2M EME. From: Ronald F. Henry <n9kww@msn.com <mailto:n9kww@msn.com> > Sent: Wednesday, May 12, 2021 2:20 PM Subject: Digital voice simplex frequency recommendations Dear sir: with the increased use of DMR,P-25 and DSTAR digital voice modes, a question has come up regarding the national simplex frequency. Historically that was considered the national simplex frequency for analog voice, with the new digital modes using that frequency will over time cause jamming and interference, since analog users cannot decode digital mode. In addition even the various digital mode cannot detect other digital modes as well. DSTAR and DMR user groups have unofficially designated VHF and UHF (primarily in the 2 meter and 70 CM bands) frequencies for simplex use on those modes. Most coordination councils have taken a hands off approach , this leads to repeater and simplex interference and conflicts. It is apparent that the one frequency concept is no longer a viable option. Granted simplex use overall is low, however with the proliferation of cheap easy to use digital handheld radios, simplex use with digital voice will become widely available and in use, this will lead to more interference reports and frustration from older hams still using wideband fm analog. The question we have is what is the ARRL’s recommendation the use of the national simplex frequencies with digital voice modes? What are the thoughts of the ARRL regarding the use of other frequencies for mode specific DV use? Has there been any thought into separating DV from analog voice in simplex operation? Thank you for you diligence inti this mater Ron Henry KB9ZB President Pewaukee Amateur Radio Club (PARC) Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone _______________________________________________ arrl-odv mailing list arrl-odv@reflector.arrl.org <mailto:arrl-odv@reflector.arrl.org> https://reflector.arrl.org/mailman/listinfo/arrl-odv _______________________________________________ arrl-odv mailing list arrl-odv@reflector.arrl.org <mailto:arrl-odv@reflector.arrl.org> https://reflector.arrl.org/mailman/listinfo/arrl-odv
There’s no real easy answers here because while some coordinators are good and efficient, some will tell you that it will take them 18 months to process an application. While I don’t believe that the ARRL should be band planning VHF/UHF, I’m not sure handing this over to the frequency coordinators is the right way either, unless you can nudge them to clean up their act. Ultimately as I said in the beginning I don’t see this as a big issue because 99% of digital comms are on repeaters and hotspots. What is a big issue is when a lot of these hotspots come programmed to satellite frequencies and as a result cause interference. But this was solved within the community with a little awareness and technology. And that’s the other thing - people ignore voluntary band plans. They do, either because they don’t like authority or the plans have no teeth to them. So why even bother with a fruitless exercise? 73 Ria N2RJ On Thu, May 13, 2021 at 2:11 PM Bob Famiglio, K3RF via arrl-odv < arrl-odv@reflector.arrl.org> wrote:
Dick's response is supposed to be the right answer. I understand our League has a suggested plan - and it should, but we need to promote the fact that we defer to area coordinators, most of which have published plans. Members tell me they have never heard of that caveat. My local group in EPA/SNJ www.ARCC-inc.org <http://www.ARCC-inc.org> does that, ( see under documents) but many hams push back because they have no idea ARRL's plan deferred to local coordinators. See one example from the other day sent to me for comment. This is common type of issue, including complaints about repeaters on legit simplex frequencies (we have many of them as crossband repeaters/nodes) and such here in the Tri-state area of PA/NJ/DE (I-95 corridor between NYC, Philly, DC) jammed pack with hams who ignore agreements because they do not know:
On 5/7/2021 10:07 AM, [ARCC official] to K3RF:
I really wish the League would stop publishing VHF/UHF bandplans. They are doing far more harm than good, especially considering they haven't even revised them in decades. Please see below (cut and paste of the back-and-forth exchange via the ARCC web site "Contact" feature:
[Clutter redacted for ODV pasting]
MESSAGE Hello I am wondering why and how you are allowing the use of simplex dedicated frequencies and are assigning repeaters to them. There are a large group of hams that use simplex and you are giving our frequencies to repeaters. I believe this is corrupt. Please let me know how this is possible.
Darrin W2OMU Form Submission May 5, 1:46 PM
Bob Famiglio, K3RF Vice Director - ARRL Atlantic Division 610-359-7300
www.QRZ.com/db/K3RF
-----Original Message----- From: arrl-odv On Behalf Of Richard Norton via arrl-odv Sent: Thursday, May 13, 2021 1:15 PM To: Arrl-odv <arrl-odv@arrl.org>; Kermit Carlson <w9xa@yahoo.com> Subject: [arrl-odv:32363] Re: Digital Voice Calling Frequencies ?
Suggest that any response from the League should refer hams to their regional frequency coordinator(s). There is likely no single “right” answer that works in all parts of the country.
73,
Dick, N6AA
On Thursday, May 13, 2021, 06:11:42 AM PDT, Kermit Carlson via arrl-odv <arrl-odv@reflector.arrl.org <mailto:arrl-odv@reflector.arrl.org> > wrote:
Hello All -
I have two questions -
1. Are there any VHF Calling frequencies in common use for Digital Voice (DV) on VHF/UHF? From what I have observed this is local option.
2. With the proliferation of varied DV modes - it is hard to imagine a frequency for >each< mode, and with the AM users (about 8 in Chicago asking the same question) it seems ridiculous to carve out spectral playgrounds for a few dozen ops on each “non-FM mode”. My answer will be; find a frequency in the “simplex” FM portion of the bands that is little used in your area and avoid the satellite and weak signal portions of the bands.
IMHO, we do not want to be involved with the selection of a National recommendation. Also, with the lack of activity on the bands this is definitely a solution looking for a problem. Another point is that hearing other Activity on “your” frequency does not constitute interference if the frequency is not in use...
Any thoughts from the Board before I respond ?
73, Kermit W9XA
ps - The Chicago AM ops used to gather on 144.35 MHz based on the history from the days of the “Club Saver” transceiver built by the hundreds by the WCRA (Wheaton Community Radio Amateurs). I have seen AM “nets” on 144.144 - luckily too high in the band for QRM with 2M EME.
From: Ronald F. Henry <n9kww@msn.com <mailto:n9kww@msn.com> > Sent: Wednesday, May 12, 2021 2:20 PM Subject: Digital voice simplex frequency recommendations
Dear sir: with the increased use of DMR,P-25 and DSTAR digital voice modes, a question has come up regarding the national simplex frequency. Historically that was considered the national simplex frequency for analog voice, with the new digital modes using that frequency will over time cause jamming and interference, since analog users cannot decode digital mode. In addition even the various digital mode cannot detect other digital modes as well. DSTAR and DMR user groups have unofficially designated VHF and UHF (primarily in the 2 meter and 70 CM bands) frequencies for simplex use on those modes. Most coordination councils have taken a hands off approach , this leads to repeater and simplex interference and conflicts. It is apparent that the one frequency concept is no longer a viable option. Granted simplex use overall is low, however with the proliferation of cheap easy to use digital handheld radios, simplex use with digital voice will become widely available and in use, this will lead to more interference reports and frustration from older hams still using wideband fm analog. The question we have is what is the ARRL’s recommendation the use of the national simplex frequencies with digital voice modes? What are the thoughts of the ARRL regarding the use of other frequencies for mode specific DV use? Has there been any thought into separating DV from analog voice in simplex operation? Thank you for you diligence inti this mater Ron Henry KB9ZB President Pewaukee Amateur Radio Club (PARC)
Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
_______________________________________________ arrl-odv mailing list arrl-odv@reflector.arrl.org <mailto:arrl-odv@reflector.arrl.org> https://reflector.arrl.org/mailman/listinfo/arrl-odv _______________________________________________ arrl-odv mailing list arrl-odv@reflector.arrl.org <mailto:arrl-odv@reflector.arrl.org> https://reflector.arrl.org/mailman/listinfo/arrl-odv _______________________________________________ arrl-odv mailing list arrl-odv@reflector.arrl.org https://reflector.arrl.org/mailman/listinfo/arrl-odv
And Ria I think is also correct. One of the looming issues for our overcrowded FM Channelized operating hams, many being from other services with no respect for rules or plans, is the serious interference between users we are seeing because even effective coordinators are not supported by a central system anymore. I realize in most rural areas of our vast country visualizing an overcrowded VHF/UHF band is unfathomable. But that is not the situation in most of our metro areas. Some hard-working coordinators are burned-out. What would happen then? One important group believes League has abandoned them and it appears they are right. Because it is such a long discussion about the history in my area with our League and coordinators by a nationally known and respected figure in coordinating over the last 25 years, I attach a portion of a long thread I have with him trying to understand what our League might be able to do to keep these resources alive and well. This was a month ago. It is long but worth reading. Caution, it names names at our League from years past. It is harsh in truth, but it is honest. I did not want to clutter up an ODV thread with copying the text here. If you have concerns about coordination, please read this. Coordination will be a real challenge for ham radio in the next 5 years. I think the League has a role to play for the better. Bob Famiglio, K3RF Vice Director - ARRL Atlantic Division From: rjairam@gmail.com Sent: Thursday, May 13, 2021 2:19 PM To: Bob Famiglio, K3RF <RBFamiglio@verizon.net> Cc: Arrl-odv <arrl-odv@arrl.org>; Kermit Carlson <w9xa@yahoo.com>; Richard Norton <richardjnorton@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [arrl-odv:32364] Re: Digital Voice Calling Frequencies ? There’s no real easy answers here because while some coordinators are good and efficient, some will tell you that it will take them 18 months to process an application. While I don’t believe that the ARRL should be band planning VHF/UHF, I’m not sure handing this over to the frequency coordinators is the right way either, unless you can nudge them to clean up their act. Ultimately as I said in the beginning I don’t see this as a big issue because 99% of digital comms are on repeaters and hotspots. What is a big issue is when a lot of these hotspots come programmed to satellite frequencies and as a result cause interference. But this was solved within the community with a little awareness and technology. And that’s the other thing - people ignore voluntary band plans. They do, either because they don’t like authority or the plans have no teeth to them. So why even bother with a fruitless exercise? 73 Ria N2RJ On Thu, May 13, 2021 at 2:11 PM Bob Famiglio, K3RF via arrl-odv <arrl-odv@reflector.arrl.org <mailto:arrl-odv@reflector.arrl.org> > wrote: Dick's response is supposed to be the right answer. I understand our League has a suggested plan - and it should, but we need to promote the fact that we defer to area coordinators, most of which have published plans. Members tell me they have never heard of that caveat. My local group in EPA/SNJ www.ARCC-inc.org <http://www.ARCC-inc.org> <http://www.ARCC-inc.org> does that, ( see under documents) but many hams push back because they have no idea ARRL's plan deferred to local coordinators. See one example from the other day sent to me for comment. This is common type of issue, including complaints about repeaters on legit simplex frequencies (we have many of them as crossband repeaters/nodes) and such here in the Tri-state area of PA/NJ/DE (I-95 corridor between NYC, Philly, DC) jammed pack with hams who ignore agreements because they do not know: On 5/7/2021 10:07 AM, [ARCC official] to K3RF:
I really wish the League would stop publishing VHF/UHF bandplans. They are doing far more harm than good, especially considering they haven't even revised them in decades. Please see below (cut and paste of the back-and-forth exchange via the ARCC web site "Contact" feature:
[Clutter redacted for ODV pasting]
MESSAGE Hello I am wondering why and how you are allowing the use of simplex dedicated frequencies and are assigning repeaters to them. There are a large group of hams that use simplex and you are giving our frequencies to repeaters. I believe this is corrupt. Please let me know how this is possible.
Darrin W2OMU Form Submission May 5, 1:46 PM
Bob Famiglio, K3RF Vice Director - ARRL Atlantic Division 610-359-7300 www.QRZ.com/db/K3RF <http://www.QRZ.com/db/K3RF> -----Original Message----- From: arrl-odv On Behalf Of Richard Norton via arrl-odv Sent: Thursday, May 13, 2021 1:15 PM To: Arrl-odv <arrl-odv@arrl.org <mailto:arrl-odv@arrl.org> >; Kermit Carlson <w9xa@yahoo.com <mailto:w9xa@yahoo.com> > Subject: [arrl-odv:32363] Re: Digital Voice Calling Frequencies ? Suggest that any response from the League should refer hams to their regional frequency coordinator(s). There is likely no single “right” answer that works in all parts of the country. 73, Dick, N6AA On Thursday, May 13, 2021, 06:11:42 AM PDT, Kermit Carlson via arrl-odv <arrl-odv@reflector.arrl.org <mailto:arrl-odv@reflector.arrl.org> <mailto:arrl-odv@reflector.arrl.org <mailto:arrl-odv@reflector.arrl.org> > > wrote: Hello All - I have two questions - 1. Are there any VHF Calling frequencies in common use for Digital Voice (DV) on VHF/UHF?
From what I have observed this is local option.
2. With the proliferation of varied DV modes - it is hard to imagine a frequency for >each< mode, and with the AM users (about 8 in Chicago asking the same question) it seems ridiculous to carve out spectral playgrounds for a few dozen ops on each “non-FM mode”. My answer will be; find a frequency in the “simplex” FM portion of the bands that is little used in your area and avoid the satellite and weak signal portions of the bands. IMHO, we do not want to be involved with the selection of a National recommendation. Also, with the lack of activity on the bands this is definitely a solution looking for a problem. Another point is that hearing other Activity on “your” frequency does not constitute interference if the frequency is not in use... Any thoughts from the Board before I respond ? 73, Kermit W9XA ps - The Chicago AM ops used to gather on 144.35 MHz based on the history from the days of the “Club Saver” transceiver built by the hundreds by the WCRA (Wheaton Community Radio Amateurs). I have seen AM “nets” on 144.144 - luckily too high in the band for QRM with 2M EME. From: Ronald F. Henry <n9kww@msn.com <mailto:n9kww@msn.com> <mailto:n9kww@msn.com <mailto:n9kww@msn.com> > > Sent: Wednesday, May 12, 2021 2:20 PM Subject: Digital voice simplex frequency recommendations Dear sir: with the increased use of DMR,P-25 and DSTAR digital voice modes, a question has come up regarding the national simplex frequency. Historically that was considered the national simplex frequency for analog voice, with the new digital modes using that frequency will over time cause jamming and interference, since analog users cannot decode digital mode. In addition even the various digital mode cannot detect other digital modes as well. DSTAR and DMR user groups have unofficially designated VHF and UHF (primarily in the 2 meter and 70 CM bands) frequencies for simplex use on those modes. Most coordination councils have taken a hands off approach , this leads to repeater and simplex interference and conflicts. It is apparent that the one frequency concept is no longer a viable option. Granted simplex use overall is low, however with the proliferation of cheap easy to use digital handheld radios, simplex use with digital voice will become widely available and in use, this will lead to more interference reports and frustration from older hams still using wideband fm analog. The question we have is what is the ARRL’s recommendation the use of the national simplex frequencies with digital voice modes? What are the thoughts of the ARRL regarding the use of other frequencies for mode specific DV use? Has there been any thought into separating DV from analog voice in simplex operation? Thank you for you diligence inti this mater Ron Henry KB9ZB President Pewaukee Amateur Radio Club (PARC) Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone _______________________________________________ arrl-odv mailing list arrl-odv@reflector.arrl.org <mailto:arrl-odv@reflector.arrl.org> <mailto:arrl-odv@reflector.arrl.org <mailto:arrl-odv@reflector.arrl.org> > https://reflector.arrl.org/mailman/listinfo/arrl-odv _______________________________________________ arrl-odv mailing list arrl-odv@reflector.arrl.org <mailto:arrl-odv@reflector.arrl.org> <mailto:arrl-odv@reflector.arrl.org <mailto:arrl-odv@reflector.arrl.org> > https://reflector.arrl.org/mailman/listinfo/arrl-odv _______________________________________________ arrl-odv mailing list arrl-odv@reflector.arrl.org <mailto:arrl-odv@reflector.arrl.org> https://reflector.arrl.org/mailman/listinfo/arrl-odv
Hi Kermit, I do see DMR simplex channels in service in my Division. I presume D-Star and Fusion simplex operations similarly exist in this area. These are all local options settled by gentleman's agreements and seem to work pretty well. Wisely, those who came before us made the sound decision that ARRL was not positioned to do repeater frequency coordination. I believe it to be ARRL's position to take the high road and as Director Norton suggests, keep those decisions with regional users. If we get involved with the minutia, we will become the "Bad Guys" in every case. 73, Dale WA8EFK On 5/13/2021 9:11 AM, Kermit Carlson via arrl-odv wrote:
Hello All -
I have two questions - 1. Are there any VHF Calling frequencies in common use for Digital Voice (DV) on VHF/UHF? From what I have observed this is local option.
2. With the proliferation of varied DV modes - it is hard to imagine a frequency for >each< mode, and with the AM users (about 8 in Chicago asking the same question) it seems ridiculous to carve out spectral playgrounds for a few dozen ops on each “non-FM mode”. My answer will be; find a frequency in the “simplex” FM portion of the bands that is little used in your area and avoid the satellite andweak signal portions of the bands.
IMHO, we do not want to be involved with the selection of a National recommendation. Also, with the lack of activity on the bands this is definitely a solution looking for a problem. Another point is that hearing other Activity on “your” frequency does not constitute interference if the frequency is not in use...
Any thoughts from the Board before I respond ?
73, Kermit W9XA
ps - The Chicago AM ops used to gather on 144.35 MHz based on the history from the days of the “Club Saver” transceiver built by the hundreds by the WCRA (Wheaton Community Radio Amateurs). I have seen AM “nets” on 144.144 - luckily too high in the band for QRM with 2M EME.
*From:* Ronald F. Henry <n9kww@msn.com <mailto:n9kww@msn.com>> *Sent:* Wednesday, May 12, 2021 2:20 PM *Subject:* Digital voice simplex frequency recommendations
Dear sir: with the increased use of DMR,P-25 and DSTAR digital voice modes, a question has come up regarding the national simplex frequency. Historically that was considered the national simplex frequency for analog voice, with the new digital modes using that frequency will over time cause jamming and interference, since analog users cannot decode digital mode. In addition even the various digital mode cannot detect other digital modes as well. DSTAR and DMR user groups have unofficially designated VHF and UHF (primarily in the 2 meter and 70 CM bands) frequencies for simplex use on those modes. Most coordination councils have taken a hands off approach , this leads to repeater and simplex interference and conflicts. It is apparent that the one frequency concept is no longer a viable option. Granted simplex use overall is low, however with the proliferation of cheap easy to use digital handheld radios, simplex use with digital voice will become widely available and in use, this will lead to more interference reports and frustration from older hams still using wideband fm analog.
The question we have is what is the ARRL’s recommendation the use of the national simplex frequencies with digital voice modes? What are the thoughts of the ARRL regarding the use of other frequencies for mode specific DV use? Has there been any thought into separating DV from analog voice in simplex operation?
Thank you for you diligence inti this mater
Ron Henry
KB9ZB
President Pewaukee Amateur Radio Club (PARC)
Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone <https://overview.mail.yahoo.com/?.src=iOS>
_______________________________________________ arrl-odv mailing list arrl-odv@reflector.arrl.org https://reflector.arrl.org/mailman/listinfo/arrl-odv
participants (8)
-
Baker, Mickey, N4MB (Dir, SE) -
Bob Famiglio, K3RF -
Dale Williams -
ebhudgens＠comcast.net -
Kermit Carlson -
NAQP SSB Manager - Bill AC0W -
Richard Norton -
rjairam＠gmail.com