[arrl-odv:34608] Fwd: Comment from Amateur Radio Community
Fyi some insight from an active balloon op. .. hdx currently in idaho.. ---------- Forwarded message --------- From: Steve Potter <spotter@superfreshgrowers.com> Date: Sun, Feb 19, 2023, 10:33 AM Subject: Re: Comment from Amateur Radio Community To: Mark J Tharp <kb7hdx@gmail.com>, Simpson, Monte, W7FF (SM, WWA) < w7ff@arrl.org> Cc: Ritz, Mike, W7VO, (Dir, NW) <w7vo@comcast.net>, Tharp, Mark KB7HDX (VD, NW) <mtharp@arrl.org> All of the launches that I have done that were high altitude ones that went 115k ft or so I filed a NOTAM with the FAA and called YKM tower if the flight path went over any normal flight paths. Legally I wasn't required to do anything since the payloads met the part 101 requirements set by the FAA but I felt it was still the responsible thing to do. The balloon that was shot down in the jet stream was most likely a pico balloon which ive flown before as well and those come in around 12-16 grams so way under what the FAA is concerned about and those I normally don't notify anyone about since it's the equivalent of a kid letting go of his birthday balloon. What I don't understand is there are 2 websites that are publicly available, one that is amateur balloons only and then another that is radiosondes and amateur balloons that everyone uses including the national weather service to monitor jet stream directions, speed at altitude, pressure, temp ect and NOAA uses that data (including amateur) for their high split modeling. It's something in my mind they should of been able to use to tell if this was a benign scientific balloon or if it was a threat. We operate 110% within the legal parameters and I fear without some media correction the administration is going to have some knee jerk reaction and kill the STEAM education and interest into this hobby and ham radio in general. High altitude balloon is what pushed me to get my license and I've gone on to be what I think is an asset to the community because of it. Let me know if you wanna go over any of it I'm more than willing to help in anyway I can. K7HAK Get Outlook for Android <https://aka.ms/AAb9ysg> ------------------------------ *From:* Mark J Tharp <kb7hdx@gmail.com> *Sent:* Sunday, February 19, 2023, 6:42 AM *To:* Simpson, Monte, W7FF (SM, WWA) <w7ff@arrl.org> *Cc:* Ritz, Mike, W7VO, (Dir, NW) <w7vo@comcast.net>; Tharp, Mark KB7HDX (VD, NW) <mtharp@arrl.org>; Steve Potter <spotter@superfreshgrowers.com> *Subject:* Re: Comment from Amateur Radio Community [External Sender] Steve, what if anything did you have to do with those you all flew? Any notifications to anyone? On Sat, Feb 18, 2023, 9:02 PM Simpson, Monte, W7FF (SM, WWA) <w7ff@arrl.org> wrote:
Mike, Mark,
The following comments are from Ray Orien, N7KPT, regarding a Popular Mechanics article in social media:
“*The Air Force May Have Actually Shot Down a Wholesome Ham Radio Balloon* ”
https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/a42952566/air-force-shoots-down-ho...
RAYMOND C ORIEN, N7KPT
16410 84th Street NE
Lake Stevens, WA 98258
ray.orien@gmail.com
“I wonder if the ARRL might want to chime in on the present situation? Perhaps they could reach out to work with the
F.A.A., FCC, ITU, and IARU to establish interim Ham Balloon “Flight plan/launch reporting requirements, maybe with
transponder / GPS “squak” requirements to lower ADIZ panic, save $ from unnecessary shoot downs.”
Balloon, tethered/untethered and rockets operations are regulated by FAA regulations 14 CFR Part 101:
https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-14/chapter-I/subchapter-F/part-101
I don’t see a nexus between the ARRL and balloons even if they are owned by amateur radio operators or contain amateur
radio equipment. What is your opinion on the subject?
Regards,
Monte
Re; The pico-balloon issues and amateur radio. (See below, especially what K7HAK and NR7V say. Is this something the Legislative Advocacy Committee should put on their plate? We need to ensure amateur radio STEM pico-balloon activities are protected when the FAA and the military finally look into how to deal with this. It seems everybody is talking about this except the League.... 73; Mike W7VO
---------- Original Message ---------- From: Mark J Tharp <kb7hdx@gmail.com> To: arrl-odv <arrl-odv@reflector.arrl.org> Date: 02/19/2023 4:09 PM Subject: [arrl-odv:34608] Fwd: Comment from Amateur Radio Community
Fyi some insight from an active balloon op. .. hdx currently in idaho..
---------- Forwarded message --------- From: Steve Potter <spotter@superfreshgrowers.com mailto:spotter@superfreshgrowers.com > Date: Sun, Feb 19, 2023, 10:33 AM Subject: Re: Comment from Amateur Radio Community To: Mark J Tharp <kb7hdx@gmail.com mailto:kb7hdx@gmail.com >, Simpson, Monte, W7FF (SM, WWA) <w7ff@arrl.org mailto:w7ff@arrl.org > Cc: Ritz, Mike, W7VO, (Dir, NW) <w7vo@comcast.net mailto:w7vo@comcast.net >, Tharp, Mark KB7HDX (VD, NW) <mtharp@arrl.org mailto:mtharp@arrl.org >
All of the launches that I have done that were high altitude ones that went 115k ft or so I filed a NOTAM with the FAA and called YKM tower if the flight path went over any normal flight paths.
Legally I wasn't required to do anything since the payloads met the part 101 requirements set by the FAA but I felt it was still the responsible thing to do. The balloon that was shot down in the jet stream was most likely a pico balloon which ive flown before as well and those come in around 12-16 grams so way under what the FAA is concerned about and those I normally don't notify anyone about since it's the equivalent of a kid letting go of his birthday balloon.
What I don't understand is there are 2 websites that are publicly available, one that is amateur balloons only and then another that is radiosondes and amateur balloons that everyone uses including the national weather service to monitor jet stream directions, speed at altitude, pressure, temp ect and NOAA uses that data (including amateur) for their high split modeling. It's something in my mind they should of been able to use to tell if this was a benign scientific balloon or if it was a threat. We operate 110% within the legal parameters and I fear without some media correction the administration is going to have some knee jerk reaction and kill the STEAM education and interest into this hobby and ham radio in general. High altitude balloon is what pushed me to get my license and I've gone on to be what I think is an asset to the community because of it. Let me know if you wanna go over any of it I'm more than willing to help in anyway I can.
K7HAK
Get Outlook for Android https://aka.ms/AAb9ysg
--------------------------------------------- From: Mark J Tharp <kb7hdx@gmail.com mailto:kb7hdx@gmail.com > Sent: Sunday, February 19, 2023, 6:42 AM To: Simpson, Monte, W7FF (SM, WWA) <w7ff@arrl.org mailto:w7ff@arrl.org > Cc: Ritz, Mike, W7VO, (Dir, NW) <w7vo@comcast.net mailto:w7vo@comcast.net >; Tharp, Mark KB7HDX (VD, NW) <mtharp@arrl.org mailto:mtharp@arrl.org >; Steve Potter <spotter@superfreshgrowers.com mailto:spotter@superfreshgrowers.com > Subject: Re: Comment from Amateur Radio Community
[External Sender]
Steve, what if anything did you have to do with those you all flew? Any notifications to anyone?
On Sat, Feb 18, 2023, 9:02 PM Simpson, Monte, W7FF (SM, WWA) <w7ff@arrl.org mailto:w7ff@arrl.org > wrote:
> >
Mike, Mark,
The following comments are from Ray Orien, N7KPT, regarding a Popular Mechanics article in social media:
“The Air Force May Have Actually Shot Down a Wholesome Ham Radio Balloon”
https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/a42952566/air-force-shoots-down-ho...
RAYMOND C ORIEN, N7KPT
16410 84th Street NE
Lake Stevens, WA 98258
ray.orien@gmail.com mailto:ray.orien@gmail.com
“I wonder if the ARRL might want to chime in on the present situation? Perhaps they could reach out to work with the
F.A.A., FCC, ITU, and IARU to establish interim Ham Balloon “Flight plan/launch reporting requirements, maybe with
transponder / GPS “squak” requirements to lower ADIZ panic, save $ from unnecessary shoot downs.”
Balloon, tethered/untethered and rockets operations are regulated by FAA regulations 14 CFR Part 101:
https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-14/chapter-I/subchapter-F/part-101
I don’t see a nexus between the ARRL and balloons even if they are owned by amateur radio operators or contain amateur
radio equipment. What is your opinion on the subject?
Regards,
Monte
>
Hello, Mike and Mark, It was hard to miss recent news about the US gov't shooting down UFOs recently. Instead of resuming intelligent decisionmaking into what to shoot down and what to not shoot down, Biden has announced that rules regarding such aircraft will be revised. News articles such as this one https://aviationweek.com/defense-space/aircraft-propulsion/hobby-clubs-missi... are revealing that many of these balloons are educational flights launched by hams, carrying WSPR and/or APRS beacons. Most or all of them are launched in accordance with relevant FAA rules that are designed to ensure aviation safety. In many cases, the flights provide lessons to students about many aspects of physics and engineering. In all others they provide such lessons to the non-student hams who build them. One can't even contemplate designing such a flight without learning something about physics and engineering! In shooting them down, the US gov't has claimed that they present a risk to aviation. That's a false claim. The current rules already take care of that. There is an overall mass limit and there's a density limit. The mass limit probably ensures that impact with such an aircraft cannot damage an airplane's flight control surfaces. The density limit probably ensures that they cannot damage a cockpit windshield, a propeller, or a jet engine. Thus, compliance with these rules ensures that in the extremely unlikely situation where an airplane hits, or a jet engine ingests, the compliant aircraft, no damage can occur. Jet engines are able to survive hitting individual birds far larger and denser than ham radio picoballoons. Possibly in an attempt to cover up their poor decisions to shoot down these balloons, and because they don't have the courage to acknowledge that they made a mistake, members of the Biden administration have announced that they'll revise the rules for such balloons. I would like ARRL to track this effort and intervene if necessary to protect hams' ability to launch harmless balloons. If true, valid analysis suggests that the overall mass limit should be reduced by a factor of 2 or 10, that's okay because these balloon flights have overall mass less than 30 grams (aka 1 ounce). Similarly, I don't mind a change to the density limit as long as it is technically valid and enables birds that presently fly in compliance with the overall mass limit to also continue their compliance with the revised density limit. Thanks Halden NR7V
> >
>
A genuine concern, but we will have lots of allies from universities and meteorological groups as well to push back on onerous regulations sure to get proposed. The real tragedy is that the $500,000 each the latest and greatest sidewinder Air-to-Air missiles cost today (my spouse Karen N3SKW worked on that project back in the day when she was at Raytheon) could have funded how many STEM projects for ham radio or otherwise? Sad. I understand that is the system used to deal with the several small balloons we are talking about. Maybe this is an opportunity for good PR while it is national news to get people to notice what hams and young students do? Bob Famiglio, K3RF Director - ARRL Atlantic Division 610-359-7300 Serving NNY, WNY, WPA, EPA, SNJ, DE and MD/DC sections www.QRZ.com/db/K3RF <http://www.qrz.com/db/K3RF> From: arrl-odv <arrl-odv-bounces@reflector.arrl.org> On Behalf Of Michael Ritz Sent: Monday, February 20, 2023 2:13 PM To: arrl-odv@reflector.arrl.org Subject: [arrl-odv:34609] Fwd: Comment from Amateur Radio Community Re; The pico-balloon issues and amateur radio. (See below, especially what K7HAK and NR7V say. Is this something the Legislative Advocacy Committee should put on their plate? We need to ensure amateur radio STEM pico-balloon activities are protected when the FAA and the military finally look into how to deal with this. It seems everybody is talking about this except the League.... 73; Mike W7VO ---------- Original Message ---------- From: Mark J Tharp <kb7hdx@gmail.com <mailto:kb7hdx@gmail.com> > To: arrl-odv <arrl-odv@reflector.arrl.org <mailto:arrl-odv@reflector.arrl.org> > Date: 02/19/2023 4:09 PM Subject: [arrl-odv:34608] Fwd: Comment from Amateur Radio Community Fyi some insight from an active balloon op. .. hdx currently in idaho.. ---------- Forwarded message --------- From: Steve Potter <spotter@superfreshgrowers.com <mailto:spotter@superfreshgrowers.com> > Date: Sun, Feb 19, 2023, 10:33 AM Subject: Re: Comment from Amateur Radio Community To: Mark J Tharp <kb7hdx@gmail.com <mailto:kb7hdx@gmail.com> >, Simpson, Monte, W7FF (SM, WWA) <w7ff@arrl.org <mailto:w7ff@arrl.org> > Cc: Ritz, Mike, W7VO, (Dir, NW) <w7vo@comcast.net <mailto:w7vo@comcast.net> >, Tharp, Mark KB7HDX (VD, NW) <mtharp@arrl.org <mailto:mtharp@arrl.org> > All of the launches that I have done that were high altitude ones that went 115k ft or so I filed a NOTAM with the FAA and called YKM tower if the flight path went over any normal flight paths. Legally I wasn't required to do anything since the payloads met the part 101 requirements set by the FAA but I felt it was still the responsible thing to do. The balloon that was shot down in the jet stream was most likely a pico balloon which ive flown before as well and those come in around 12-16 grams so way under what the FAA is concerned about and those I normally don't notify anyone about since it's the equivalent of a kid letting go of his birthday balloon. What I don't understand is there are 2 websites that are publicly available, one that is amateur balloons only and then another that is radiosondes and amateur balloons that everyone uses including the national weather service to monitor jet stream directions, speed at altitude, pressure, temp ect and NOAA uses that data (including amateur) for their high split modeling. It's something in my mind they should of been able to use to tell if this was a benign scientific balloon or if it was a threat. We operate 110% within the legal parameters and I fear without some media correction the administration is going to have some knee jerk reaction and kill the STEAM education and interest into this hobby and ham radio in general. High altitude balloon is what pushed me to get my license and I've gone on to be what I think is an asset to the community because of it. Let me know if you wanna go over any of it I'm more than willing to help in anyway I can. K7HAK Get Outlook for Android <https://aka.ms/AAb9ysg> _____ From: Mark J Tharp <kb7hdx@gmail.com <mailto:kb7hdx@gmail.com> > Sent: Sunday, February 19, 2023, 6:42 AM To: Simpson, Monte, W7FF (SM, WWA) <w7ff@arrl.org <mailto:w7ff@arrl.org> > Cc: Ritz, Mike, W7VO, (Dir, NW) <w7vo@comcast.net <mailto:w7vo@comcast.net> >; Tharp, Mark KB7HDX (VD, NW) <mtharp@arrl.org <mailto:mtharp@arrl.org> >; Steve Potter <spotter@superfreshgrowers.com <mailto:spotter@superfreshgrowers.com> > Subject: Re: Comment from Amateur Radio Community [External Sender] Steve, what if anything did you have to do with those you all flew? Any notifications to anyone? On Sat, Feb 18, 2023, 9:02 PM Simpson, Monte, W7FF (SM, WWA) <w7ff@arrl.org <mailto:w7ff@arrl.org> > wrote: Mike, Mark, The following comments are from Ray Orien, N7KPT, regarding a Popular Mechanics article in social media: “The Air Force May Have Actually Shot Down a Wholesome Ham Radio Balloon” https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/a42952566/air-force-shoots-down-ho... <https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/a42952566/air-force-shoots-down-hobby-balloon-ufo> RAYMOND C ORIEN, N7KPT 16410 84th Street NE Lake Stevens, WA 98258 ray.orien@gmail.com <mailto:ray.orien@gmail.com> “I wonder if the ARRL might want to chime in on the present situation? Perhaps they could reach out to work with the F.A.A., FCC, ITU, and IARU to establish interim Ham Balloon “Flight plan/launch reporting requirements, maybe with transponder / GPS “squak” requirements to lower ADIZ panic, save $ from unnecessary shoot downs.” Balloon, tethered/untethered and rockets operations are regulated by FAA regulations 14 CFR Part 101: https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-14/chapter-I/subchapter-F/part-101 I don’t see a nexus between the ARRL and balloons even if they are owned by amateur radio operators or contain amateur radio equipment. What is your opinion on the subject? Regards, Monte Hello, Mike and Mark, It was hard to miss recent news about the US gov't shooting down UFOs recently. Instead of resuming intelligent decisionmaking into what to shoot down and what to not shoot down, Biden has announced that rules regarding such aircraft will be revised. News articles such as this one https://aviationweek.com/defense-space/aircraft-propulsion/hobby-clubs-missi... are revealing that many of these balloons are educational flights launched by hams, carrying WSPR and/or APRS beacons. Most or all of them are launched in accordance with relevant FAA rules that are designed to ensure aviation safety. In many cases, the flights provide lessons to students about many aspects of physics and engineering. In all others they provide such lessons to the non-student hams who build them. One can't even contemplate designing such a flight without learning something about physics and engineering! In shooting them down, the US gov't has claimed that they present a risk to aviation. That's a false claim. The current rules already take care of that. There is an overall mass limit and there's a density limit. The mass limit probably ensures that impact with such an aircraft cannot damage an airplane's flight control surfaces. The density limit probably ensures that they cannot damage a cockpit windshield, a propeller, or a jet engine. Thus, compliance with these rules ensures that in the extremely unlikely situation where an airplane hits, or a jet engine ingests, the compliant aircraft, no damage can occur. Jet engines are able to survive hitting individual birds far larger and denser than ham radio picoballoons. Possibly in an attempt to cover up their poor decisions to shoot down these balloons, and because they don't have the courage to acknowledge that they made a mistake, members of the Biden administration have announced that they'll revise the rules for such balloons. I would like ARRL to track this effort and intervene if necessary to protect hams' ability to launch harmless balloons. If true, valid analysis suggests that the overall mass limit should be reduced by a factor of 2 or 10, that's okay because these balloon flights have overall mass less than 30 grams (aka 1 ounce). Similarly, I don't mind a change to the density limit as long as it is technically valid and enables birds that presently fly in compliance with the overall mass limit to also continue their compliance with the revised density limit. Thanks Halden NR7V
I predict what may happen is that the FAA may impose some sort of remote ID and registration requirement like they did with drones. Although they exempt drones <250g. I am hoping it doesn't become as onerous whereby the remote ID has to phone home before you are allowed to take off. Ria ________________________________ From: arrl-odv <arrl-odv-bounces@reflector.arrl.org> on behalf of Mark J Tharp <kb7hdx@gmail.com> Sent: Sunday, February 19, 2023 7:09 PM To: arrl-odv@reflector.arrl.org <arrl-odv@reflector.arrl.org> Subject: [arrl-odv:34608] Fwd: Comment from Amateur Radio Community Fyi some insight from an active balloon op. .. hdx currently in idaho.. ---------- Forwarded message --------- From: Steve Potter <spotter@superfreshgrowers.com<mailto:spotter@superfreshgrowers.com>> Date: Sun, Feb 19, 2023, 10:33 AM Subject: Re: Comment from Amateur Radio Community To: Mark J Tharp <kb7hdx@gmail.com<mailto:kb7hdx@gmail.com>>, Simpson, Monte, W7FF (SM, WWA) <w7ff@arrl.org<mailto:w7ff@arrl.org>> Cc: Ritz, Mike, W7VO, (Dir, NW) <w7vo@comcast.net<mailto:w7vo@comcast.net>>, Tharp, Mark KB7HDX (VD, NW) <mtharp@arrl.org<mailto:mtharp@arrl.org>> All of the launches that I have done that were high altitude ones that went 115k ft or so I filed a NOTAM with the FAA and called YKM tower if the flight path went over any normal flight paths. Legally I wasn't required to do anything since the payloads met the part 101 requirements set by the FAA but I felt it was still the responsible thing to do. The balloon that was shot down in the jet stream was most likely a pico balloon which ive flown before as well and those come in around 12-16 grams so way under what the FAA is concerned about and those I normally don't notify anyone about since it's the equivalent of a kid letting go of his birthday balloon. What I don't understand is there are 2 websites that are publicly available, one that is amateur balloons only and then another that is radiosondes and amateur balloons that everyone uses including the national weather service to monitor jet stream directions, speed at altitude, pressure, temp ect and NOAA uses that data (including amateur) for their high split modeling. It's something in my mind they should of been able to use to tell if this was a benign scientific balloon or if it was a threat. We operate 110% within the legal parameters and I fear without some media correction the administration is going to have some knee jerk reaction and kill the STEAM education and interest into this hobby and ham radio in general. High altitude balloon is what pushed me to get my license and I've gone on to be what I think is an asset to the community because of it. Let me know if you wanna go over any of it I'm more than willing to help in anyway I can. K7HAK Get Outlook for Android<https://aka.ms/AAb9ysg> ________________________________ From: Mark J Tharp <kb7hdx@gmail.com<mailto:kb7hdx@gmail.com>> Sent: Sunday, February 19, 2023, 6:42 AM To: Simpson, Monte, W7FF (SM, WWA) <w7ff@arrl.org<mailto:w7ff@arrl.org>> Cc: Ritz, Mike, W7VO, (Dir, NW) <w7vo@comcast.net<mailto:w7vo@comcast.net>>; Tharp, Mark KB7HDX (VD, NW) <mtharp@arrl.org<mailto:mtharp@arrl.org>>; Steve Potter <spotter@superfreshgrowers.com<mailto:spotter@superfreshgrowers.com>> Subject: Re: Comment from Amateur Radio Community [External Sender] Steve, what if anything did you have to do with those you all flew? Any notifications to anyone? On Sat, Feb 18, 2023, 9:02 PM Simpson, Monte, W7FF (SM, WWA) <w7ff@arrl.org<mailto:w7ff@arrl.org>> wrote: Mike, Mark, The following comments are from Ray Orien, N7KPT, regarding a Popular Mechanics article in social media: “The Air Force May Have Actually Shot Down a Wholesome Ham Radio Balloon” https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/a42952566/air-force-shoots-down-hobby-balloon-ufo/<https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/a42952566/air-force-shoots-down-hobby-balloon-ufo> RAYMOND C ORIEN, N7KPT 16410 84th Street NE Lake Stevens, WA 98258 ray.orien@gmail.com<mailto:ray.orien@gmail.com> “I wonder if the ARRL might want to chime in on the present situation? Perhaps they could reach out to work with the F.A.A., FCC, ITU, and IARU to establish interim Ham Balloon “Flight plan/launch reporting requirements, maybe with transponder / GPS “squak” requirements to lower ADIZ panic, save $ from unnecessary shoot downs.” Balloon, tethered/untethered and rockets operations are regulated by FAA regulations 14 CFR Part 101: https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-14/chapter-I/subchapter-F/part-101 I don’t see a nexus between the ARRL and balloons even if they are owned by amateur radio operators or contain amateur radio equipment. What is your opinion on the subject? Regards, Monte
participants (4)
-
Jairam, Ria, N2RJ (Dir, HD) -
Mark J Tharp -
Michael Ritz -
RBFamiglio＠verizon.net