[arrl-odv:22545] FW: [dxlab] Warning: Crimea
The response was predictable. Remind me again, this is a hobby, right? Doug K4AC -----Original Message----- From: Joe Subich, W4TV [mailto:w4tv@subich.com] Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2014 10:32 PM To: k4ac Subject: Re: [dxlab] Warning: Crimea Doug, Pardon my bluntness but that's bullshit! It essentially says a station signing UF6V in Abkhazia can be worked for Russia even though Abkhazi is sovereign Georgian territory (in rebellion) - the same for Crimea. Similarly, if the Turkish government were to issue, for the sake of argument, TA0 calls in Northern Cyprus (since there is not enough separation from the mainland to consider it a separate DXCC Entity) and those stations said "Cyprus Province" of Turkey instead of "Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus" *they* would count for Turkey. The answer is *CRAP* and treats Crimea (as well as potentially Abkhazia and S. Ossetia) differently than Kosovo and TRNC. It would also recognize Moroccan claims in Western Sahara - again a case in which Crimea is being treated differently. 73, ... Joe, W4TV On 3/25/2014 9:46 PM, Doug Rehman wrote:
Joe:
Below is the response.
73, Doug K4AC
Upon request of the CEO, Awards committee evaluated the situation at present in Crimea against the DXCC rules. As the interpreter of the rules, the following is the Awards Committee’s decision on how to “count” QSOs with stations operating from Crimea.
Crimea is not a DXCC entity. Neither Russia nor Ukraine is a rare entity and the vast majority of confirmations used for DXCC credit for either entity do not involve Crimea.
DXCC Rule 4 reads: "4. Confirmation data for two-way communications must include the call signs of both stations, the entity name as shown in the DXCC List, mode, date, time and band. Except as permitted in Rule 1, cross-mode contacts are not permitted for DXCC credits. Confirmations not containing all required information may be rejected."
A QSL with a call sign issued by the administration of Ukraine and showing the entity name as Ukraine counts as Ukraine.
A QSL with a call sign issued by the administration of Russia and showing the entity name as Russia counts as Russia.
A QSL that satisfies neither condition does not count for either entity.
-----Original Message----- From: Joe Subich, W4TV [mailto:w4tv@subich.com] Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2014 11:00 AM To: k4ac Subject: Fwd: [dxlab] Warning: Crimea
Doug,
Any reply from NC1L? It's been more than a week since Russia annexed Crimea and plenty of time to announce that the rules will be followed.
If they're not going to announce that the rules will be followed, when are they going to add Kosovo, Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus, Abkhazia (UF6V) and S. Ossetia all of which are similar "disputed territory" to the DXCC list?
73,
... Joe, W4TV
-------- Original Message -------- Subject: Fwd: [dxlab] Warning: Crimea Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2014 16:25:42 -0400 From: Joe Subich, W4TV <lists@subich.com> To: Doug Rehman <doug@k4ac.com>
Doug,
When is the ARRL DXCC Desk going to follow the rules and announce that stations in Crimea no longer count for DXCC?
Rues are rules - failure to enforce them to the letter returns the DXCC program to the "bad old days" of Baldwin's reef, etc.
73, ... Joe, W4TV
=====================================================================
Consistent with the rules of DXCC, effective with the annexation of Crimea by Russia today [Tuesday], Crimea in occupied territory or an area "in rebellion" against the lawful government. As is the case in other disputed areas like the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus, Kosovo, Russian enclaves (Abkhazia and South Ossetia) in Georgia, etc., contacts with stations in those areas should not count for DXCC.
Pending official word from the DXCC desk, Ukrainian callsigns with 'J' as the first letter of the suffix will be removed from the next version of the DXCC database used by DXLab Suite. The call signs effected begin with UR#J through UZ#J, EM#J through EO#J, and U5J.
When announced by Russia, the block(s) of Russian callsigns assigned to the "Crimea Oblast" will also be removed from the Russian entries in the DXCC database used by DXLab Suite.
LotW will need to cancel certificates for any calls in the effected blocks and eQSL.cc will need to apply end dates to any accounts for the same calls.
======================================================================
DXCC is not a mechanism for bestowing recognition of sovereignty. It is a mechanism for keeping score. Dave ________________________________________ From: arrl-odv-bounces@reflector.arrl.org [arrl-odv-bounces@reflector.arrl.org] on behalf of Rehman, Doug, K4AC Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2014 1:34 AM To: arrl-odv Subject: [arrl-odv:22545] FW: [dxlab] Warning: Crimea The response was predictable. Remind me again, this is a hobby, right? Doug K4AC -----Original Message----- From: Joe Subich, W4TV [mailto:w4tv@subich.com] Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2014 10:32 PM To: k4ac Subject: Re: [dxlab] Warning: Crimea Doug, Pardon my bluntness but that's bullshit! It essentially says a station signing UF6V in Abkhazia can be worked for Russia even though Abkhazi is sovereign Georgian territory (in rebellion) - the same for Crimea. Similarly, if the Turkish government were to issue, for the sake of argument, TA0 calls in Northern Cyprus (since there is not enough separation from the mainland to consider it a separate DXCC Entity) and those stations said "Cyprus Province" of Turkey instead of "Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus" *they* would count for Turkey. The answer is *CRAP* and treats Crimea (as well as potentially Abkhazia and S. Ossetia) differently than Kosovo and TRNC. It would also recognize Moroccan claims in Western Sahara - again a case in which Crimea is being treated differently. 73, ... Joe, W4TV On 3/25/2014 9:46 PM, Doug Rehman wrote:
Joe:
Below is the response.
73, Doug K4AC
Upon request of the CEO, Awards committee evaluated the situation at present in Crimea against the DXCC rules. As the interpreter of the rules, the following is the Awards Committee’s decision on how to “count” QSOs with stations operating from Crimea.
Crimea is not a DXCC entity. Neither Russia nor Ukraine is a rare entity and the vast majority of confirmations used for DXCC credit for either entity do not involve Crimea.
DXCC Rule 4 reads: "4. Confirmation data for two-way communications must include the call signs of both stations, the entity name as shown in the DXCC List, mode, date, time and band. Except as permitted in Rule 1, cross-mode contacts are not permitted for DXCC credits. Confirmations not containing all required information may be rejected."
A QSL with a call sign issued by the administration of Ukraine and showing the entity name as Ukraine counts as Ukraine.
A QSL with a call sign issued by the administration of Russia and showing the entity name as Russia counts as Russia.
A QSL that satisfies neither condition does not count for either entity.
-----Original Message----- From: Joe Subich, W4TV [mailto:w4tv@subich.com] Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2014 11:00 AM To: k4ac Subject: Fwd: [dxlab] Warning: Crimea
Doug,
Any reply from NC1L? It's been more than a week since Russia annexed Crimea and plenty of time to announce that the rules will be followed.
If they're not going to announce that the rules will be followed, when are they going to add Kosovo, Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus, Abkhazia (UF6V) and S. Ossetia all of which are similar "disputed territory" to the DXCC list?
73,
... Joe, W4TV
-------- Original Message -------- Subject: Fwd: [dxlab] Warning: Crimea Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2014 16:25:42 -0400 From: Joe Subich, W4TV <lists@subich.com> To: Doug Rehman <doug@k4ac.com>
Doug,
When is the ARRL DXCC Desk going to follow the rules and announce that stations in Crimea no longer count for DXCC?
Rues are rules - failure to enforce them to the letter returns the DXCC program to the "bad old days" of Baldwin's reef, etc.
73, ... Joe, W4TV
=====================================================================
Consistent with the rules of DXCC, effective with the annexation of Crimea by Russia today [Tuesday], Crimea in occupied territory or an area "in rebellion" against the lawful government. As is the case in other disputed areas like the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus, Kosovo, Russian enclaves (Abkhazia and South Ossetia) in Georgia, etc., contacts with stations in those areas should not count for DXCC.
Pending official word from the DXCC desk, Ukrainian callsigns with 'J' as the first letter of the suffix will be removed from the next version of the DXCC database used by DXLab Suite. The call signs effected begin with UR#J through UZ#J, EM#J through EO#J, and U5J.
When announced by Russia, the block(s) of Russian callsigns assigned to the "Crimea Oblast" will also be removed from the Russian entries in the DXCC database used by DXLab Suite.
LotW will need to cancel certificates for any calls in the effected blocks and eQSL.cc will need to apply end dates to any accounts for the same calls.
======================================================================
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For a variety of reasons I try to stay out of DXCC issues and am generally successful, but in this case it is difficult to resist. It is pointless to deal in hypotheticals, but none of the examples cited by W4TV stand up to scrutiny. UF6V is the old Soviet-era prefix for the Abkhazian Oblast of Georgia. Contacts counted for Georgia. Abkhazia claims to be independent, not part of Russia. A station signing a UF6V call from Abkhazia today wouldn't count for anything. Turkey does not claim that the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus is part of Turkey and does not issue licenses for operation there. With regard to Kosovo, the issue is not whether it belongs to one or the other of two DXCC entities but whether it qualifies as a separate entity. Under the current DXCC rules it does not. A QSL for a contact with an amateur operating from there under a license issued by Serbia and with Serbia shown on the card as the location still counts as Serbia. An example that illustrates the inadvisability of our trying to do what Joe apparently advocates is Israel. If a QSL card has a 4X or 4Z call sign and says Israel, it counts for Israel for DXCC. If it also happens to have a more precise location on it we don't drag out maps and try to figure out whether that location is within the internationally recognized borders of Israel. 73, Dave K1ZZ -----Original Message----- From: arrl-odv-bounces@reflector.arrl.org [mailto:arrl-odv-bounces@reflector.arrl.org] On Behalf Of Sumner, Dave, K1ZZ Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2014 6:32 AM To: Rehman, Doug, K4AC; arrl-odv Subject: [arrl-odv:22546] Re: FW: [dxlab] Warning: Crimea DXCC is not a mechanism for bestowing recognition of sovereignty. It is a mechanism for keeping score. Dave ________________________________________ From: arrl-odv-bounces@reflector.arrl.org [arrl-odv-bounces@reflector.arrl.org] on behalf of Rehman, Doug, K4AC Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2014 1:34 AM To: arrl-odv Subject: [arrl-odv:22545] FW: [dxlab] Warning: Crimea The response was predictable. Remind me again, this is a hobby, right? Doug K4AC -----Original Message----- From: Joe Subich, W4TV [mailto:w4tv@subich.com] Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2014 10:32 PM To: k4ac Subject: Re: [dxlab] Warning: Crimea Doug, Pardon my bluntness but that's bullshit! It essentially says a station signing UF6V in Abkhazia can be worked for Russia even though Abkhazi is sovereign Georgian territory (in rebellion) - the same for Crimea. Similarly, if the Turkish government were to issue, for the sake of argument, TA0 calls in Northern Cyprus (since there is not enough separation from the mainland to consider it a separate DXCC Entity) and those stations said "Cyprus Province" of Turkey instead of "Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus" *they* would count for Turkey. The answer is *CRAP* and treats Crimea (as well as potentially Abkhazia and S. Ossetia) differently than Kosovo and TRNC. It would also recognize Moroccan claims in Western Sahara - again a case in which Crimea is being treated differently. 73, ... Joe, W4TV On 3/25/2014 9:46 PM, Doug Rehman wrote:
Joe:
Below is the response.
73, Doug K4AC
Upon request of the CEO, Awards committee evaluated the situation at present in Crimea against the DXCC rules. As the interpreter of the rules, the following is the Awards Committee's decision on how to "count" QSOs with stations operating from Crimea.
Crimea is not a DXCC entity. Neither Russia nor Ukraine is a rare entity and the vast majority of confirmations used for DXCC credit for either entity do not involve Crimea.
DXCC Rule 4 reads: "4. Confirmation data for two-way communications must include the call signs of both stations, the entity name as shown in the DXCC List, mode, date, time and band. Except as permitted in Rule 1, cross-mode contacts are not permitted for DXCC credits. Confirmations not containing all required information may be rejected."
A QSL with a call sign issued by the administration of Ukraine and showing the entity name as Ukraine counts as Ukraine.
A QSL with a call sign issued by the administration of Russia and showing the entity name as Russia counts as Russia.
A QSL that satisfies neither condition does not count for either entity.
-----Original Message----- From: Joe Subich, W4TV [mailto:w4tv@subich.com] Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2014 11:00 AM To: k4ac Subject: Fwd: [dxlab] Warning: Crimea
Doug,
Any reply from NC1L? It's been more than a week since Russia annexed Crimea and plenty of time to announce that the rules will be followed.
If they're not going to announce that the rules will be followed, when are they going to add Kosovo, Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus, Abkhazia (UF6V) and S. Ossetia all of which are similar "disputed territory" to the DXCC list?
73,
... Joe, W4TV
-------- Original Message -------- Subject: Fwd: [dxlab] Warning: Crimea Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2014 16:25:42 -0400 From: Joe Subich, W4TV <lists@subich.com> To: Doug Rehman <doug@k4ac.com>
Doug,
When is the ARRL DXCC Desk going to follow the rules and announce that stations in Crimea no longer count for DXCC?
Rues are rules - failure to enforce them to the letter returns the DXCC program to the "bad old days" of Baldwin's reef, etc.
73, ... Joe, W4TV
=====================================================================
Consistent with the rules of DXCC, effective with the annexation of Crimea by Russia today [Tuesday], Crimea in occupied territory or an area "in rebellion" against the lawful government. As is the case in other disputed areas like the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus, Kosovo, Russian enclaves (Abkhazia and South Ossetia) in Georgia, etc., contacts with stations in those areas should not count for DXCC.
Pending official word from the DXCC desk, Ukrainian callsigns with 'J' as the first letter of the suffix will be removed from the next version of the DXCC database used by DXLab Suite. The call signs effected begin with UR#J through UZ#J, EM#J through EO#J, and U5J.
When announced by Russia, the block(s) of Russian callsigns assigned to the "Crimea Oblast" will also be removed from the Russian entries in the DXCC database used by DXLab Suite.
LotW will need to cancel certificates for any calls in the effected blocks and eQSL.cc will need to apply end dates to any accounts for the same calls.
======================================================================
_______________________________________________ arrl-odv mailing list arrl-odv@reflector.arrl.org http://reflector.arrl.org/mailman/listinfo/arrl-odv _______________________________________________ arrl-odv mailing list arrl-odv@reflector.arrl.org http://reflector.arrl.org/mailman/listinfo/arrl-odv
Hobby, eh? When there was some kind of kerfuffle going on several years ago, a member wrote to me with no hint of irony whatsoever saying that "of course the most important thing the League does is DXCC." I didn't send any electrons to a pointless death by trying to convince him otherwise. 73 - Kay N3KN
participants (3)
-
Doug Rehman -
Kay Craigie -
Sumner, Dave, K1ZZ