It occurs to me that some of the coordinators may have come to a very frightening realization—what happens to them if RFinder decides to go into the repeater coordination business? They already have a very good crowdsourced database of repeaters. If they add some topographic based coverage prediction software, they could automate the process of coordination to near real time. (Of course they would need ASL or HAAT data, and possibly erp, for prediction.) Since the current coordinators have absolutely no exclusive “right” to coordinate their areas (no recognition by the FCC or the ARRL), this could get very interesting. Doug K4AC From: Rod Blocksome [mailto:rod.blocksome@gmail.com] Sent: Saturday, February 6, 2016 2:49 PM To: James F. Boehner, MD <jboehner01@yahoo.com>; 'Sumner, Dave, K1ZZ' <dsumner@arrl.org>; 'Rehman, Doug, K4AC' <doug@k4ac.com>; 'Kramer, Harold, WJ1B' <wj1b@arrl.org>; 'arrl-odv' <arrl-odv@reflector.arrl.org> Cc: 'Ford, Steve, WB8IMY' <sford@arrl.org>; 'Inderbitzen, Bob, NQ1R' <rinderbitzen@arrl.org> Subject: Re: [arrl-odv:25131] Re: Repeater App Changes Jim, I understand your points but I believe this is ripe for unintended consequences. Dave, please correct me if I’m wrong, but the ARRL repeater directory has only published coordinated repeaters. So now our brand goes on a third-party app who publishes repeater data from any source – both coordinated and uncoordinated repeaters? If the app is going to show that a repeater is coordinated or uncoordinated, then I think it should be a part of the WRITTEN agreement and further that the “coordinated” label AND coordinated repeater data only come through the section repeater coordinators. Otherwise, I think trouble lies ahead. 73, Rod, K0DAS From: James F. Boehner, MD <mailto:jboehner01@yahoo.com> Sent: Friday, February 05, 2016 9:33 PM To: 'Rod Blocksome' <mailto:rod.blocksome@gmail.com> ; 'Sumner, Dave, K1ZZ' <mailto:dsumner@arrl.org> ; 'Rehman, Doug, K4AC' <mailto:doug@k4ac.com> ; 'Kramer, Harold, WJ1B' <mailto:wj1b@arrl.org> ; 'arrl-odv' <mailto:arrl-odv@reflector.arrl.org> Cc: 'Ford, Steve, WB8IMY' <mailto:sford@arrl.org> ; 'Inderbitzen, Bob, NQ1R' <mailto:rinderbitzen@arrl.org> Subject: RE: [arrl-odv:25131] Re: Repeater App Changes The great advantage of the app is that it uses crowd-sourcing, so that the database is continually updated rather than stuck at one point in time. I spoke with Bob, and the app designer is planning on adding another field to his data to indicate if a repeater is coordinated or not. Hopefully that will encourage coordination bodies to contribute to the app to give their stamp of approval to the data, with credit given to them. The coordination bodies have controlled data up to this time, but in this age of immediate information and crowd-sourcing, that strangle-hold will no longer be the case. Since the print versions are not going away, the coordinators should not lose their income for data submitted to the ARRL, at least not in the short term. Like everyone else, they will need to adapt to our accelerated digital age. ’73 de JIM N2ZZ Director – Roanoke Division Serving ARRL members in the Virginia, West Virginia, South Carolina and North Carolina sections ARRL – The National Association for Amateur Radio™ From: arrl-odv [mailto:arrl-odv-bounces@reflector.arrl.org] On Behalf Of Rod Blocksome Sent: Friday, February 05, 2016 5:28 PM To: Sumner, Dave, K1ZZ; Rehman, Doug, K4AC; Kramer, Harold, WJ1B; arrl-odv Cc: Ford, Steve, WB8IMY; Inderbitzen, Bob, NQ1R Subject: [arrl-odv:25131] Re: Repeater App Changes I’m getting some push back here as well. One of the main points relates to item 3 below: If the RFinder app is “branded” by ARRL the membership will believe (rightly or wrongly) that we are responsible for the content. Yet we have no responsibility for providing content. Therefor it’s likely that RFinder will contain both coordinated and un-coordinated repeaters. If that be the case, then it seems a necessity that each repeater listing be labeled as such. Or perhaps RFinder could only accept input data from the repeater coordinators? Thoughts?? 73’s, Rod, K0DAS From: Sumner, Dave, K1ZZ <mailto:dsumner@arrl.org> Sent: Friday, February 05, 2016 9:36 AM To: Rehman, Doug, K4AC <mailto:doug@k4ac.com> ; Kramer, Harold, WJ1B <mailto:wj1b@arrl.org> ; arrl-odv <mailto:arrl-odv@reflector.arrl.org> Cc: Ford, Steve, WB8IMY <mailto:sford@arrl.org> ; Inderbitzen, Bob,NQ1R <mailto:rinderbitzen@arrl.org> Subject: [arrl-odv:25125] Re: Repeater App Changes At Minute 9.3 of the October 3, 2015 Executive Committee meeting there is the following summary: 9.3. Mr. Sumner reviewed the history and future prospects of the ARRL Repeater Directory and related products. A new agreement was reached with 54 of 60 repeater frequency coordinators that will result in an improved publication for the 2016-17 Edition. However, the long-term viability of printed directories of any kind is doubtful. There are inexpensive web-based directories and smartphone apps available that accept crowdsourced data and are growing in popularity. Significant investment will be required if the quality of the Repeater Directory and related products is to meet future market expectations and ARRL organizational objectives. In the course of discussion it was generally agreed that there are several factors to be considered in determining whether such an investment is appropriate since the Repeater Directory serves several objectives in addition to generating net revenue in support of the ARRL’s mission. In the course of developing the 2016-17 operational plan it became apparent that we could not continue to support TravelPlus, nor did it make sense to make the investment in the mobile app that would be necessary to make it competitive. This was highlighted in the Chief Operating Officer’s report to the January Board meeting. On the other hand, we couldn’t leave existing users of these products high and dry, so we looked for alternatives. RFinder was among the most cited online resources for listings that are more complete than our ARRL Repeater Directory database products. Our own research found that the RFinder apps have a user base many more times larger than our Repeater Directory apps and software put together. And, the RFinder apps consistently enjoy greater than 4/5 ratings from its subscribers. The ARRL Repeater apps, which never enjoyed anything better than ratings of 2-3, were criticized for missing, incomplete, and static data (updated only once yearly). The TravelPlus software had reached the end of its lifecycle--wrought with Windows incompatibility problems. The developer was unable to keep pace with user demands for feature-rich mobile applications and interest in "Google-like" mapping (TravelPlus used very coarse maps). We could no longer sustain the software support--and its customer base was on the decline (not surprising at $25 to $35 each year). Bob Greenberg, W2CYK, is a longtime ARRL member who had already entered into marketing arrangements with national societies in several other countries, as described in yesterday’s news release. Our due diligence included checking with our sister societies to learn about their experience working with him. So to summarize: 1. We are discontinuing TravelPlus, a product built on an obsolete platform that no longer meets anyone’s expectations and clearly is not worth the investment it would take to update and maintain it. 2. We are discontinuing a mobile app that is uncompetitive and not worth further investment. 3. We are endorsing a different app that is much more useful to end users and will provide a modest revenue stream to the ARRL with little cost or risk. The ARRL has no involvement in providing content for this app. 4. We are continuing to publish the annual Repeater Directory in print form and to compensate repeater coordinators who supply data for the Repeater Directory in accordance with existing agreements. Because there is erroneous information to the contrary in circulation I will say again, with emphasis: The ARRL is NOT providing data to RFinder. Our reading of the current agreement with repeater coordinators who provide data for the printed Repeater Directory is that it prevents us from sharing this data with third parties and we intend to adhere strictly to that reading. 73, Dave K1ZZ _____ _______________________________________________ arrl-odv mailing list arrl-odv@reflector.arrl.org <mailto:arrl-odv@reflector.arrl.org> https://reflector.arrl.org/mailman/listinfo/arrl-odv