Hello Doug et al; I want everyone to be aware, that a private emailsent by me to Nels Harvey (a now previous friend of 40 years)was relayed to the coordinators yahoogroup along with a noteasking that any other communications with Directors be postedto that yahoo group. I find this disturbing at several levels andindeed a breach of protocol and courtesy. I expect that mostDirectors and ViceDirectors can expect similar actions bymembers of the coordinator group. Please direct any questions about my short three sentenceemail to me, off line. 73, Kermit W9XA From: Doug Rehman <doug@k4ac.com> To: "'Sumner, Dave, K1ZZ'" <dsumner@arrl.org>; "'Kramer, Harold, WJ1B'" <wj1b@arrl.org>; 'arrl-odv' <arrl-odv@reflector.arrl.org> Sent: Friday, February 5, 2016 11:15 AM Subject: [arrl-odv:25129] Re: Repeater App Changes #yiv7586006661 #yiv7586006661 -- _filtered #yiv7586006661 {panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;} _filtered #yiv7586006661 {font-family:Calibri;panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;}#yiv7586006661 #yiv7586006661 p.yiv7586006661MsoNormal, #yiv7586006661 li.yiv7586006661MsoNormal, #yiv7586006661 div.yiv7586006661MsoNormal {margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:11.0pt;}#yiv7586006661 a:link, #yiv7586006661 span.yiv7586006661MsoHyperlink {color:#0563C1;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv7586006661 a:visited, #yiv7586006661 span.yiv7586006661MsoHyperlinkFollowed {color:#954F72;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv7586006661 p.yiv7586006661MsoPlainText, #yiv7586006661 li.yiv7586006661MsoPlainText, #yiv7586006661 div.yiv7586006661MsoPlainText {margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:11.0pt;}#yiv7586006661 p.yiv7586006661MsoListParagraph, #yiv7586006661 li.yiv7586006661MsoListParagraph, #yiv7586006661 div.yiv7586006661MsoListParagraph {margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:8.0pt;margin-left:.5in;line-height:105%;font-size:11.0pt;}#yiv7586006661 p.yiv7586006661MsoListParagraphCxSpFirst, #yiv7586006661 li.yiv7586006661MsoListParagraphCxSpFirst, #yiv7586006661 div.yiv7586006661MsoListParagraphCxSpFirst {margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:.5in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:105%;font-size:11.0pt;}#yiv7586006661 p.yiv7586006661MsoListParagraphCxSpMiddle, #yiv7586006661 li.yiv7586006661MsoListParagraphCxSpMiddle, #yiv7586006661 div.yiv7586006661MsoListParagraphCxSpMiddle {margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:.5in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:105%;font-size:11.0pt;}#yiv7586006661 p.yiv7586006661MsoListParagraphCxSpLast, #yiv7586006661 li.yiv7586006661MsoListParagraphCxSpLast, #yiv7586006661 div.yiv7586006661MsoListParagraphCxSpLast {margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:8.0pt;margin-left:.5in;line-height:105%;font-size:11.0pt;}#yiv7586006661 p.yiv7586006661msonormal0, #yiv7586006661 li.yiv7586006661msonormal0, #yiv7586006661 div.yiv7586006661msonormal0 {margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;font-size:12.0pt;}#yiv7586006661 span.yiv7586006661PlainTextChar {}#yiv7586006661 span.yiv7586006661EmailStyle21 {color:windowtext;font-weight:normal;font-style:normal;text-decoration:none none;}#yiv7586006661 span.yiv7586006661EmailStyle22 {color:#1F497D;}#yiv7586006661 span.yiv7586006661EmailStyle23 {color:#1F497D;}#yiv7586006661 span.yiv7586006661EmailStyle24 {color:#1F497D;}#yiv7586006661 span.yiv7586006661EmailStyle25 {color:#1F497D;}#yiv7586006661 span.yiv7586006661EmailStyle26 {color:#1F497D;}#yiv7586006661 .yiv7586006661MsoChpDefault {font-size:10.0pt;} _filtered #yiv7586006661 {margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;}#yiv7586006661 div.yiv7586006661WordSection1 {}#yiv7586006661 Dave: Thanks for the additional information. I’m not certain what the coordinators think they will accomplish by withholding data from the League. It seems the likely outcome of their doing that would be for the Repeater Directory to cease publication much sooner—depriving themselves of an additional five or so years of easy money. Perhaps they mistakenly believe they can intimidate the League into cancelling the RFinder contract. At any rate, I don’t think they will gain much sympathy in the general amateur community once it is known that there is a potential monetary element to their protestations. Time and technology march on; organizations either adapt or decline… DougK4AC From: Sumner, Dave, K1ZZ [mailto:dsumner@arrl.org] Sent: Friday, February 5, 2016 11:24 AM To: Rehman, Doug, K4AC <doug@k4ac.com>; Kramer, Harold, WJ1B <wj1b@arrl.org>; arrl-odv <arrl-odv@reflector.arrl.org> Cc: Ford, Steve, WB8IMY <sford@arrl.org>; Inderbitzen, Bob, NQ1R <rinderbitzen@arrl.org> Subject: RE: [arrl-odv:25120] Re: Repeater App Changes Doug, I’m sure that concern is in the back of some minds, and for good reason. While the printed Repeater Directory is still profitable and reasonably popular, sales are declining and we’re running out of rabbits to pull out the hat such as the large-print spiral-bound edition. It’s difficult to imagine there will be a market for the printed Directory five years from now. Our longstanding arrangement with coordinators is that we pay $1.00 per listing that they provide. That price was intended originally to offset the cost of their verifying data, which at the time relied on the US Postal Service as the communications channel between the coordinator and the repeater owners. I’m sure it represents a significant part of the budgets of some coordinators. Dave From: Rehman, Doug, K4AC Sent: Friday, February 05, 2016 10:59 AM To: Sumner, Dave, K1ZZ; Kramer, Harold, WJ1B; arrl-odv Cc: Ford, Steve, WB8IMY; Inderbitzen, Bob, NQ1R Subject: RE: [arrl-odv:25120] Re: Repeater App Changes Dave: Thanks for the background. Your summary about the once per year snapshot of data from the coordinators is spot on. In Florida, the FRC has been on the edge of being ineffective for as long as I know. They have had a single person doing database updates and he has limited time and an unacceptable error rate. Their once a year snapshot may be months out of date. On lesser used bands, many repeater owners don’t even bother with coordination because the process is so poor. One question- you said: “4. We are continuing to publish the annual Repeater Directory in print form and to compensate repeater coordinators who supply data for the Repeater Directory in accordance with existing agreements.” What specifically is the compensation to the Repeater Coordinators? With that bit of information in your email, it appears that the coordinators may be in fear of the League ceasing publication of the printed Repeater Directory and the loss of a revenue stream to them. DougK4AC From: Sumner, Dave, K1ZZ [mailto:dsumner@arrl.org] Sent: Friday, February 5, 2016 10:36 AM To: Rehman, Doug, K4AC <doug@k4ac.com>; Kramer, Harold, WJ1B <wj1b@arrl.org>; arrl-odv <arrl-odv@reflector.arrl.org> Cc: Ford, Steve, WB8IMY <sford@arrl.org>; Inderbitzen, Bob, NQ1R <rinderbitzen@arrl.org> Subject: RE: [arrl-odv:25120] Re: Repeater App Changes At Minute 9.3 of the October 3, 2015 Executive Committee meeting there is the following summary: 9.3. Mr. Sumner reviewed the history and future prospects of the ARRL Repeater Directory and related products. A new agreement was reached with 54 of 60 repeater frequency coordinators that will result in an improved publication for the 2016-17 Edition. However, the long-term viability of printed directories of any kind is doubtful. There are inexpensive web-based directories and smartphone apps available that accept crowdsourced data and are growing in popularity. Significant investment will be required if the quality of the Repeater Directory and related products is to meet future market expectations and ARRL organizational objectives. In the course of discussion it was generally agreed that there are several factors to be considered in determining whether such an investment is appropriate since the Repeater Directory serves several objectives in addition to generating net revenue in support of the ARRL’s mission. In the course of developing the 2016-17 operational plan it became apparent that we could not continue to support TravelPlus, nor did it make sense to make the investment in the mobile app that would be necessary to make it competitive. This was highlighted in the Chief Operating Officer’s report to the January Board meeting. On the other hand, we couldn’t leave existing users of these products high and dry, so we looked for alternatives. RFinder was among the most cited online resources for listings that are more complete than our ARRL Repeater Directory database products. Our own research found that the RFinder apps have a user base many more times larger than our Repeater Directory apps and software put together. And, the RFinder apps consistently enjoy greater than 4/5 ratings from its subscribers. The ARRL Repeater apps, which never enjoyed anything better than ratings of 2-3, were criticized for missing, incomplete, and static data (updated only once yearly). The TravelPlus software had reached the end of its lifecycle--wrought with Windows incompatibility problems. The developer was unable to keep pace with user demands for feature-rich mobile applications and interest in "Google-like" mapping (TravelPlus used very coarse maps). We could no longer sustain the software support--and its customer base was on the decline (not surprising at $25 to $35 each year). Bob Greenberg, W2CYK, is a longtime ARRL member who had already entered into marketing arrangements with national societies in several other countries, as described in yesterday’s news release. Our due diligence included checking with our sister societies to learn about their experience working with him. So to summarize:1. We are discontinuing TravelPlus, a product built on an obsolete platform that no longer meets anyone’s expectations and clearly is not worth the investment it would take to update and maintain it.2. We are discontinuing a mobile app that is uncompetitive and not worth further investment.3. We are endorsing a different app that is much more useful to end users and will provide a modest revenue stream to the ARRL with little cost or risk. The ARRL has no involvement in providing content for this app.4. We are continuing to publish the annual Repeater Directory in print form and to compensate repeater coordinators who supply data for the Repeater Directory in accordance with existing agreements. Because there is erroneous information to the contrary in circulation I will say again, with emphasis: The ARRL is NOT providing data to RFinder. Our reading of the current agreement with repeater coordinators who provide data for the printed Repeater Directory is that it prevents us from sharing this data with third parties and we intend to adhere strictly to that reading. 73,Dave K1ZZ _______________________________________________ arrl-odv mailing list arrl-odv@reflector.arrl.org https://reflector.arrl.org/mailman/listinfo/arrl-odv