Gee, Andy, Old dogs can indeed learn new tricks. Tnx for you info. Jim Weaver, K8JE Director, Great Lakes Division ARRL; http://www.arrl.org/ 5065 Bethany Rd., Mason, OH 45040 Tel.: 513-459-0142; E-mail: k8je@arrl.org ARRL: The reason Amateur Radio Is! MEMBERS: The reason ARRL Is! -----Original Message----- From: Andy Oppel [mailto:andy_oppel@earthlink.net] Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 9:35 PM To: arrl-odv Subject: [arrl-odv:12835] Re: Guess what The behavior the Dr. Weaver experienced is indeed the default behavior of most search engines. If you include multiple terms, it finds all documents where those terms appear somewhere in the document. However, if you place serveral terms in double quotes, it does an exact match on those terms. When I put the terms 2006, 2008, division, and elections into the search, I got the same results Dr. Weaver reported. However, when I put double-quotes around the entire string, it became one search term and the result was no documents: Sorry, your search for "2005 division election" did not find any results. No documents were found containing ""2005 division election"". I removed 2005, searching only on "division election" (as a single term) and got this result: 1. ARRLWeb: W1AW <http://www.arrl.org/htdig/w1aw/2000-index.html> General Bulletins for 2000 [5.815%] ... SK 06-Dec-2000 ARLB046 Former ARRL NW Division Vice Director Gib Gibson, W7JIE, SK ... Elected 17-Nov-2000 ARLB044 ARRL Division Election Results 16-Nov-2000 ARLS021 ... http://www.arrl.org/w1aw/2000-index.html - 14020 bytes [text/html] - Sun, 19 Mar 2000, 11:57:22 EST 2. ARRLWeb: W1AW Bulletin <http://www.arrl.org/htdig/w1aw/2000-arlb044.html> ARLB044 (2000) [2.701%] ... Keplerian . Propagation ARLB044: ARRL Division Election Results SB QST @ ARL $ARLB044 ARLB044 ARRL Division Election Results ZCZC AG44 QST de ... SB QST ARL ARLB044 ARLB044 ARRL Division Election Results The ARRL Central ... http://www.arrl.org/w1aw/2000-arlb044.ht... <http://www.arrl.org/w1aw/2000-arlb044.html> - 8542 bytes [text/html] - Fri, 17 Nov 2000, 17:13:06 EST The only problem here is the lack of results for any division election after 2000. I don't believe the search engine itself is to blame, but rather the indexing of documents. Indexing is the process that scans documents, pulling keywords into an index that is used by the search engine to find related documents (much like a human would do with the index in the back of a book). In fact, when you write a book, the publisher typically hires an "indexer" who reads the manuscript (or more likely uses some automated tool) and assembles an index (I know this from the book I have in print - the indexer even has a credit in the book). It's clear to me that the ARRL web site isn't properly indexed for the search engine. I don't know what process is being used, but the best is a fully automated solution using an indexing tool that works 100% of the time. The Google tool that someone suggested at the board meeting (my apologies on not remembering who it was) is an appliance (combined hardware and software) that plugs into the web server and automatically indexes every document added to the server. The appliance also has the now famous Google search engine in it. I don't know what it costs, but my guess is that it's not cheap. And it's certainly not the only solution out there, so please don't take my comments on it as a specific recommendation. The point should be that what we have now is broken and needs to be fixed -- the "fix" requires a bit of study and a proper analysis of workable alternative solutions. -- Andy Oppel, N6AJO Vice Director, Pacific Division (and in my work life: Principal Data Architect, Ceridian) At 01:58 PM 7/29/2005, you wrote: You got your initial result because there was one document on the Web site in which the terms "2006," "2008," "division" and "elections" appeared (I believe our search engine, and most others, ignores hyphens). That happened to be the 2000 10-Meter Contest Results. All four terms are there -- take a look. If the search engine was a sentient being it probably would have wondered why on earth you wanted this document, but it found what you asked for and told you that you probably weren't interested in it (that's what the low percentage figure means). It didn't find what you were looking for because that document is not on the Web site. It isn't on the Web site because Bylaw 18 stipulates where it should appear, and that's in QST. The way to change that is to amend the Bylaws, not the search engine. Dave K1ZZ -----Original Message----- From: Weaver, Jim K8JE (DIR, GL) Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 4:26 PM To: arrl-odv Subject: RE: [arrl-odv:12830] Re: Guess what Dave, I'm just expressing frustration over the recalcitrant nature I happen to continue to see in our system. The greater the degree to which an information search system must be fed information before it retrieves useful output, the less the practical value of the system. For example, providing information on the 2001 ARRL 10 M contest when I had requested "election" information during "2005" seems to indicate the system is about as still as useless as mammary glands on a boar. At best it suggests the system is as user-friendly as was Attila the Hun to his captives. (Pardon my intended hyperbolism.) When are we going to have a system that operates in a manner that will reflect positively on our technologically-progressive organization? Conversely, should the question be, "Will we ever . . .?" Jim Weaver, K8JE Director, Great Lakes Division ARRL; http://www.arrl.org/ 5065 Bethany Rd., Mason, OH 45040 Tel.: 513-459-0142; E-mail: k8je@arrl.org ARRL: The reason Amateur Radio Is! MEMBERS: The reason ARRL Is! -----Original Message----- From: Sumner, Dave, K1ZZ [ mailto:dsumner@arrl.org <mailto:dsumner@arrl.org> ] Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 3:27 PM To: arrl-odv Subject: [arrl-odv:12830] Re: Guess what Jim, I'm not sure what point you're making. If it is to propose that Bylaw 18 be amended, it is certainly possible to formulate an amendment for January. 73, Dave K1ZZ -----Original Message----- From: Weaver, Jim K8JE (DIR, GL) Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 3:19 PM To: arrl-odv Subject: [arrl-odv:12829] Guess what Desiring a respite from the important things in ham life and wishing to be reminded of everything that has been published in QST or on our web site, I decided to do a search of arrl.org for "2006-2008 division elections." Sure enough, within a couple of seconds the search results appeared. One item was found. It was; 1. 2000 <http://www.arrl.org/contests/results/2000/2000-10-meter-results.pdf> ARRL 10-Meter Contest Results [0.020%] [pdf] ... were also a total of 39 new ARRL/RAC division records set during the event. Phone ... Operator stations that set new ARRL Division records in their categories: Mixed QRP ... http://www.arrl.org/contests/results/200... <http://www.arrl.org/contests/results/2000/2000-10-meter-results.pdf> - 162789 bytes [application/pdf] - Fri, 27 Jul 2001, 11:12:16 EDT Reasoning that the search engine must want me to ask for 2005 elections I revised the search to "2005 division elections." Sure enough, I promptly saw: 1. ARRLWeb: <http://www.arrl.org/arrlletter/01/1116/> The ARRL Letter [4.878%] ... in three ARRL divisions for the 2002- 2005 term. The Committee of Tellers has ... the results of these contested elections. In the Pacific Division incumbent ... completing his second year as Pacific Division Vice Director. In the Southeastern ... http://www.arrl.org/arrlletter/01/1116/ - 33643 bytes [text/html] - Fri, 16 Nov 2001, 19:03:36 EST 2. ARRLWeb: <http://www.arrl.org/w1aw/2001-arlb049.html> W1AW Bulletin ARLB049 (2001) [4.878%] 2005 bulletins: General . DX . ... in three ARRL divisions for the 2002-2005 term. The Committee of Tellers has ... the results of these contested elections. In the Pacific Division incumbent ... http://www.arrl.org/w1aw/2001-arlb049.ht... <http://www.arrl.org/w1aw/2001-arlb049.html> - 7803 bytes [text/html] - Fri, 16 Nov 2001, 16:57:09 EST 3. ARRLWeb: <http://www.arrl.org/sections/index.html?sect=VT&monthly=1> ARRL VT Section [2.922%] ... Clubs Other sections New England Division Back to Section Page Monthly Section News Summaries May 2005 April 2005 February 2005 January 2005 December 2004 October 2004 September ... http://www.arrl.org/sections/index.html?... <http://www.arrl.org/sections/index.html?sect=VT&monthly=1> - 9601 bytes [text/html] - Fri, 17 Jun 2005, 22:59:38 EDT 4. ARRLWeb: <http://www.arrl.org/w1aw/1998-arlb100.html> W1AW Bulletin ARLB100 (1998) [0.865%] 2005 bulletins: General . DX . ... Keplerian . Propagation ARLB100: ARRL elections SB QST @ ARL $ARLB100 ARLB100 ARRL elections ZCZC AG01 QST de W1AW ARRL Bulletin ... http://www.arrl.org/w1aw/1998-arlb100.ht... <http://www.arrl.org/w1aw/1998-arlb100.html> - 6617 bytes [text/html] - Thu, 31 Dec 1998, 13:49:55 EST 5. ARRLWeb: ARRL In <http://www.arrl.org/news/features/2005/06/30/1/?nc=1> Action: What Have We Been Up To Lately? [0.860%] ... Editor jkleinman@arrl.org June 30, 2005 This feature--including convenient Web ... Radio Spectrum Protection Act of 2005 into the Senate. ARRL President Jim ... Communications Conference (GAREC 2005) in his capacity as Region 2 President ... http://www.arrl.org/news/features/2005/0... <http://www.arrl.org/news/features/2005/06/30/1/?nc=1> - 8632 bytes [text/html] - Wed, 31 Dec 1969, 19:00:00 EST http://www.arrl.org/news/features/2005/0... <http://www.arrl.org/news/features/2005/06/30/1/> - 8632 bytes - Wed, 31 Dec 1969, 19:00:00 EST 6. ARRLWeb: <http://www.arrl.org/announce/board-0501/> Minutes of the 2005 Annual Meeting ARRL Board of <http://www.arrl.org/announce/board-0501/> Directors [0.831%] ... Minutes of the 2005 Annual Meeting ARRL Board of Directors January 21-22, 2005 Summary Agenda 1. Roll Call 2. Moment ... Articles of Association and Bylaws 7. Elections 8. Consideration of recommendations of ... http://www.arrl.org/announce/board-0501/ - 35778 bytes [text/html] - Fri, 28 Jan 2005, 15:52:24 EST 7. ARRLWeb: Minutes of the <http://www.arrl.org/announce/ec_minutes_476.html> Executive Committee, Number 475 [0.816%] ... COMMITTEE Denver Colorado -- April 9, 2005 Pursuant to due notice, the Executive ... met at 8:40 AM MDT, Saturday, April 9, 2005 , at the Denver Airport Marriott at ... D. Imlay, W3KD, and Midwest Division Vice Director Bruce Frahm, K0BJ, at ... http://www.arrl.org/announce/ec_minutes_... <http://www.arrl.org/announce/ec_minutes_476.html> - 28079 bytes [text/html] - Tue, 26 Apr 2005, 10:07:19 EDT 8. ARRLWeb: <http://www.arrl.org/w1aw/1998-index.html> W1AW General Bulletins for 1998 [0.677%] 2005 bulletins: General . DX . ... QRT 04-Dec-1998 ARLB104 Northwestern Division Director Mary Lou Brown, NM7N, SK ... results 20-Nov-1998 ARLB100 ARRL elections 16-Nov-1998 ARLB099 FCC call sign ... http://www.arrl.org/w1aw/1998-index.html - 17004 bytes [text/html] - Thu, 31 Dec 1998, 09:45:52 EST 9. ARRLWeb: <http://www.arrl.org/w1aw/2000-arlb006.html> W1AW Bulletin ARLB006 (2000) [0.640%] 2005 bulletins: General . DX . ... . Propagation ARLB006: ARRL Officer Elections Set Musical Chairs in Motion SB QST @ ARL $ARLB006 ARLB006 ARRL Officer Elections Set Musical Chairs in Motion ZCZC AG06 ... http://www.arrl.org/w1aw/2000-arlb006.ht... <http://www.arrl.org/w1aw/2000-arlb006.html> - 7047 bytes [text/html] - Sun, 19 Mar 2000, 11:58:03 EST 10. ARRLWeb: ARRL In Action: <http://www.arrl.org/news/features/2005/06/01/2/> What Have We Been Up To Lately? [0.603%] ... Editor jkleinman@arrl.org June 1, 2005 This feature--including convenient Web ... HQ for two contested Section Manager elections. Six incumbent SMs did not face ... its slate of scholarship winners for 2005. The 2005 Goldfarb Scholarship was ... http://www.arrl.org/news/features/2005/0... <http://www.arrl.org/news/features/2005/06/01/2/> - 6402 bytes [text/html] - Wed, 31 Dec 1969, 19:00:00 EST http://www.arrl.org/news/features/2005/0... <http://www.arrl.org/news/features/2005/06/01/2/?nc=1> - 6402 bytes - Wed, 31 Dec 1969, 19:00:00 EST Searching for "2005-8 division election announcements" I found a variety of reports on BoD meetings, l primarily. After this, I "turned the computer off" and went looking for my QSTs while thanking HPM for making this great new IT system available to us and our members. Geez! Jim Weaver, K8JE Director, Great Lakes Division ARRL; http://www.arrl.org/ 5065 Bethany Rd., Mason, OH 45040 Tel.: 513-459-0142; E-mail: k8je@arrl.org ARRL: The reason Amateur Radio Is! MEMBERS: The reason ARRL Is!